TWD 50: 10-1: WWE, TNA, New Japan, Dragon Gate and more
Check out 50-41 here; Check out 40-31 here; Check out 30-21 here. Check out 20-11 here.
Introduction
Welcome, wrestling fans, to the first ever (and the first of many) TWD 50, a list that ranks the 50 best professional wrestlers in the world.
This is something that we here at The Wrestling Daily have been working on for well over a month now. We’ve put in countless hours of film study and spent many more arguing with each other over where to rank who and why.
Some of the rankings will shock you. Some might make you happy. Some might make you pensively scratch your chin and make you say “hmmm.” Some rankings may even piss you off, and that’s okay, because we expect that.
This isn’t your standard, run of the mill kayfabe ranking system, a la Pro Wrestling Illustrated. We left no stone unturned and favored NO ONE in determining who is the best professional wrestler in the world.
Before we get started, here’s a look at the criteria for our rankings, as announced some time ago by Mike Bessler:
- Overall value to current promotion in terms of quality and quantity of ring work
- Career contributions to the pro wrestling world, including pioneering and “trailblazing†work as well as training and introducing young performers to the business
- Versatility in terms of persona and in-ring style
- Success in multiple promotions (where applicable, as this may not be a factor for younger talent)
- Drawing ability
- Fan popularity
- The ability to tell a story in the ring
- Consistency
- Work ethic
- Ability to connect to the audience and get them to react in a desired way
Special thanks goes out to my partners in crime on all of this, Mike Cranwell aka The Puro Dude, and James Triggs, who deserve large amounts of praise for helping make the TWD 50 a reality.
Let us now continue the process of ranking the top 50 professional wrestlers in the world. When last we met, we ranked number 50-41. Today we will be ranking 10-1.
Check out 50-41 here.
Check out 40-31 here.
Check out 30-21 here.
Check out 20-11 here.
TWD Lifetime Achievement Award
Before we begin with the Top-10, we at TWD would like to give out our first TWD Lifetime Achievement Award.
Mitsuharu Misawa (image credit: Pro Wrestling NOAH)
Every year before the unveiling of the Top-10, we will honor (or honor if an American is writing this next year) one wrestler whose contributions to Pro Wrestling/Puroresu are worthy of it. This year, I am ecstatic to name Mitsuharu Misawa as the first-ever recipient of the TWD Lifetime Achievement Award.
Simply put, Mitsuharu Misawa is the single-greatest wrestler in the history of the sport. If you want to go by Meltzer’s 5-star standard, sure. Of Meltzer’s 67 recognized 5-star matches, Misawa has been in 24, the most of anyone who has ever laced up the boots. And in all 24 of those matches, he was either the leader of his team, or the biggest name in the match. Never once was he a secondary character. In a 5 month span between the end of January and the end of June 1995, Misawa was in six Meltzer-recognized 5-star matches, including one that I feel is the Greatest Match of All Time (6/9/95, Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue).
And that’s not to mention the myriad near-5-star matches Misawa was the main player in.
If you don’t care about the caliber of matches and want to look at the business side of things and his ability to sell tickets, Misawa-led All Japan sold out every single show in Tokyo from July 1990 to March 1996 (and that you can put on the guy facing Misawa that night who was a Gaijin that couldn’t draw and wasn’t realistic vs. Misawa).
All Japan only ran the Tokyo Dome twice, in 1998 and 1999, and both times sold over 50,000 tickets for the events. This was arguably three and four years after All Japan had peaked as a promotion.
If you want to look at changing the business, Misawa was a real life Noah – the biblical one. He stood up to the woman some called “The Yoko Ono of Puroresu†and took virtually the entire All Japan roster and created his own company. Pro Wrestling NOAH started on 8/5/00, and has had arguably the best in-ring product in Japan from the moment it opened. And while the Heavyweight division isn’t what it was in All Japan, the Jr. Heavyweight division is second-to-none in the World.
I could go on and on…and on and on about Misawa, and trust me, I have. For now though, I’ll leave you with this simple thought: He was the greatest wrestler to ever perform, and considering we’re here to talk the best wrestlers of today, it’s only fitting to recognize the best ever.
10. AJ Styles (Total Non-Stop Action Wrestling)
Jason Le Blanc on Styles: The most enjoyable moment in TNA Wrestling this year, for me, was watching A.J. Styles win the TNA World Heavyweight championship, but even that moment was tarnished on some level by the inept booking from the TNA creative team.
A.J. Styles (image credit: TNA Wrestling)
Styles winning the championship should have been a moment where he proved he was, without a doubt, a better man than defending champion Kurt Angle, but instead what we got was a typical TNA 5 man match involving Styles, Angle, Hernandez, Matt Morgan, and Sting.
TNA has some sort of irrational fear of singles matches, as the company often tries to cram as many people as they can into one match, seemingly with the logic that more is better. In this case it isn’t, as it made Styles look like the only way he was able to win the title was because there were three other men involved (aside from Angle and Styles) in the match. Yes, Styles did pin Angle, but only because Sting decided to make sure A.J. won the match at the end.
This parlayed into a “retirement†angle for Sting and his accompanying match with Styles, but what would have been wrong with Styles beating Angle on his own, and having Sting come out and challenge Styles for a match to find out if he could still go with one of the best in the world?
I’m amazed that Styles was able to survive the debacle that was the Main Event Mafia angle that so many kept telling me would make stars out of the young talent on the TNA roster. I’ve got news for you people: THAT ANGLE WAS AN EPIC FAILURE!
A.J. Styles was an NWA World Heavyweight Champion BEFORE the Main Event Mafia came around. The only reason Styles was in a position where he needed to be elevated in the first place is because TNA creative is that bad. Samoa Joe’s TNA career is dangerously close to being shot after he inexplicably joined the Main Event Mafia in a non-sensical plot twist earlier in 2009. The Motor City Machine Guns, who were involved with the storyline at the start, have been too busy being worried about whether or not they have the worst music in the history of TNA, even though they are the best tag team in wrestling today.
Styles, to his credit, managed to avoid going into a funk like Joe and the Guns have been in TNA, and his work has been stellar in the process. Styles was excellent in his title victory at Turning Point and has produced excellent matches with Booker T., Kurt Angle, Matt Morgan, and Sting.
Styles most recently turned in what some are calling a match of the year candidate working with Samoa Joe and Christopher Daniels at Turning Point. The fact that the match was booked though, is sort of an indication of the booking quality in TNA. The only reason this match was given a chance in the first place is because it was a match of the year candidate several years ago. Daniels and Joe didn’t really benefit much from this match, and Styles didn’t defeat two men who have been booked as world title contenders of late. It was TNA throwing out a good match for the hell of throwing out a good match without any regard for long term planning or good story telling. How’s about evolving and booking something new for the champ?
Styles has world class talent, but he will forever be handcuffed by the fact that he is promoted by TNA. Styles has had the labels of “up and coming talent†and “future superstar†for about seven years now, and TNA is only now starting to get serious about pushing him. This is where Styles should have been at years ago.
9. CIMA (Dragon Gate)
Jason LeBlanc on CIMA: I would like to first begin with a correction, because when it comes to talking about the top wrestlers in the world, you should ALWAYS pronounce their ring names correctly. Yes, his ring name is CIMA, but it is not pronounced “seemaâ€. His name is pronounced “shima†and CIMA is merely a stylized spelling of his name. So many people I talk pronounce his name incorrectly, so I wanted to get this information out there now that I have a big stage.
CIMA (image credit: Dragon Gate)
Now then, on to why CIMA is the ninth best wrestler in the world today.
The first time I ever had the privilege of seeing CIMA work was on the DVD of a Ring of Honor show taped on March 30, 2006 in Detroit, Michigan. On that show was a terrific six man tag team match between CIMA’s Blood Generation faction, which was composed of CIMA himself, Naruki Doi, and Masato Yoshino, against the Generation Next faction of Austin Aries, Roderick Strong, and Jack Evans.
The best promo on the show was a short little backstage promo about a third of the way into the show that featured Blood Generation standing in, what I assume, was their locker room. During that promo, CIMA looked into the camera and reminded us that tonight, Blood Generation and Generation Next would do battle.
CIMA then took the promo into another direction, and the expression on his face morphed into an inquisitive one. CIMA wanted to demonstrate for everyone that Blood Generation would win the match that night. He remarked that Generation “Next†implied that they were second best, or weren’t the best right now. CIMA then wondered who the best generation was right now. Blood Generation was of course. The three men then stood before the camera and flexed their muscles and I spent about 10 minutes laughing over how AWESOME that promo was.
Point is, CIMA grabbed my attention and delivered a fantastic performance later that evening in a match that had a pace unlike anything I had seen in years. The level of execution coupled with the sheer frenetic pacing was mind bogglingly excellent. The match started off slow and then slowly built into what could basically be described as perfectly controlled chaos, and it was beautiful to watch.
The following night, Blood Generation took on Do Fixer (Dragon Kid, Genki Horiguchi and Ryo Saito) in a match that was rated as a 5 star match by Dave Meltzer. I tend to be a bit stingy with handing out the 5 stars myself, but that match was every bit the 5 star contest that Meltzer claims it is. I was convinced at that point that CIMA was one of the best in the world.
Three years later, CIMA continues being one of the best in the world, as he is a true master of the style the promotion prides itself on: an exciting junior heavyweight style that utilizes high flying maneuvers, flashy technical wrestling, and myriad submissions.
Naruki Doi might be the Open the Dream Gate champion, and Dragon Gate will likely continue to build the company around the likes of Doi, Yoshino, Shingo, YAMATO, Yokosuka, Dragon Kid, BxB Hulk, Saito, and a whole host of others, but make no mistake: CIMA is the ace of Dragon Gate and has mastered the art of wrestling more so than any other talent on the Dragon Gate roster. The only difference between now and the time frame between 2006 and the summer of 2008 is that CIMA is using his talents to help make stars out of the other talent roster, like he did this past summer when CIMA, who was the Open the Brave Gate (what DG calls their “junior heavyweight†title) champion, lost to Open the Dream Gate (what DG calls their “heavyweight†title) Naruki Doi in a title unification match. A rub like that can only be beneficial for Doi, who is fast on his way to becoming one of the top 10 wrestlers in the world.
Thank you CIMA.
8. Prince Devitt (New Japan Pro Wrestling)
Mike Cranwell on Devitt: *Announcer* “Devitt whips Sabin into the ropes, HUGE dropsault! Sabin knocked to the outside – Fergal off the ropes, SUICIDE PLANCHA! Devitt just launched himself half off of Sabin’s prone body, and half off the guardrail! That was insane!â€
Prince Devitt (image credit: New Japan Pro Wrestling)
I mean, it’s all in Japanese, but you get the idea.
I’m not gonna lie, as a writer, I am far more into writing about people and situations that interest me. So I take great joy in being able to write about Fergal “Prince†Devitt, at just 28 years of age, sitting in the 8 spot in the TWD 50.
For anyone who hasn’t seen Devitt (who for the record, goes by Prince Devitt – no idea, maybe he likes 1999 or something), the easiest person I can compare him to is the aforementioned AJ Styles.
Devitt flies both around, and outside of the ring with complete reckless abandon and disregard for his body. The scenario I illustrated to open this is a typical Devitt big match occurrence. And let me tell you, the Japanese fans loooove him for it. “DE-VIT-TO!†chants rain down on him as he lays seemingly half-conscious on the floor, and they continue as he back gets into the ring.†But that’s not all Devitt brings to the ring.
He can tell an excellent story, as witnessed by the robbery of a match that was the Best of the Super Jr.’s Finals this year between Devitt and Koji Kanemoto (gee who would get more out of winning the biggest annual Jr.’s tournament in Japan: Devitt, seen as one of the future stars of the company – if not a star already, or Kanemoto, a 43 year old who had already won the tournament twice prior, and should be passing the proverbial torch?), as well as several of the round-robin matches.
Devitt’s best work over the past two years has come in big time tag team feuds over the Jr. Heavyweight Tag Team Titles. In 2008, Devitt and his tag team partner Minoru, had several very good-to-great bouts with the team of Jushin “Thunder†Liger and AKIRA. Every last one of these matches felt like you were watching something special, a lost feeling in the vast majority of wrestling nowadays.
This past year, Devitt and his new partner Ryusuke Taguchi (imagine a quasi-attractive guy who obviously works out, but doesn’t eat perfectly, doing a “Ravishing†Rick Rude gimmick, and you have the “Funky Weapon†himself) have been embroiled in two feuds. The Apollo 55 vs MCMG feud that was touched upon during the Alex Shelley profile, and a home-based feud with Milano Collection AT and Taichi Ishimori (not to be confused with NOAH’s Taiji Ishimori, who should be on the 50 soon enough).
The Apollo 55 vs. Unione II feud has delivered time and time again for New Japan this year (though not in the same way that the 2008 feud Devitt was in delivered, but there you had two legends, a probable future legend, and a movie star who happens to have had a very good career as a very good wrestler), and quite frankly, every time Devitt is in the ring, he delivers big time. While it’s frustrating to see him not given more of a chance to be a breakout star by New Japan, the BOSJ showing was NJ’s way of getting the ball rolling for him. Hopefully the next stop will be a 1/4 IWGP Jr. Heavyweight Title match vs. the most annoying wrestler in Japan, Tiger Mask IV. Somebody’s got to end the madness that is TM IV on top of New Japan’s Jr. Division, and I can’t think of anyone better than the Prince to save us all.
7. Shawn Michaels (World Wrestling Entertainment)
Jason Le Blanc on Michaels: When I found out that I would have the opportunity to write about Shawn Michaels for the TWD50, I was ecstatic, as I’m sure many would be. Then I actually sat down to write about Michaels, and I realized that I have absolutely no clue of what I could say that hasn’t already been said by thousands of others. Michaels is one of those few talents that, no matter how hard you try, you can never really find the words to adequately describe just how good he is.
Shawn Michaels (image credit: World Wrestling Entertainment)
Nevertheless, I will try, even if it might be futile.
If a man walked into my office right now with a loaded gun, pressed it to my temple, cocked the gun, and promised to blow my brains out unless I booked a 5 star wrestling singles wrestling match, one of the men I would put in such a match would easily be Shawn Michaels.
Michaels has mastered the art of in ring storytelling, a skill that has really been displayed in the past several years in matches against the likes of Kurt Angle, Ric Flair, Chris Jericho, and most recently The Undertaker at WrestleMania 25, a match that some are calling the greatest in WrestleMania history.
Want a ridiculous Sportscenter type of fact? Shawn Michaels has won the Pro Wrestling Illustrated award for match of the year an absurd NINE TIMES, and when this year is over, it very well could be ten. Even more staggering is that Michaels has won the award five years running, starting in 2004. Michaels also won the award four consecutive times between 1993 and 1996.
Let’s take a look at those matches shall we?:
- 1993 May 17 Shawn Michaels vs. Marty Jannetty
- 1994 March 20 Razor Ramon vs. Shawn Michaels
- 1995 April 2 Diesel vs. Shawn Michaels
- 1996 March 31 Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels
- 2004 March 14 Triple H vs. Chris Benoit
vs. Shawn Michaels - 2005 April 3 Shawn Michaels vs. Kurt Angle
- 2006 April 2 Shawn Michaels vs. Vince McMahon
- 2007 April 23 John Cena vs. Shawn Michaels
- 2008 March 30 Ric Flair vs. Shawn Michaels
So what happened between 1996 and 2004? Michaels was injured-retired for a good chunk of that. In 1997, Shawn’s Hell in a Cell match with the Undertaker finished 3rd in the voting. In 1998, Shawn’s match with Steven Austin finished as the runner up. In 2002, Shawn’s match with Triple H finished as the runner up. In 2003, Shawn’s match with Chris Jericho at WrestleMania finished 4th in the voting.
All of this means Michaels will go down as one of the greatest in the history of the business, but has he been the greatest this year? Not quite.
Shawn’s one gem this year is obviously his match with ‘Taker at WrestleMania. He also has ha great matches with the likes of John Cena and Chris Jericho this year, and was a key cog in some pretty good tag team matches featuring DX taking on the likes of Legacy and Jerishow.
Michaels has also been apart of an absurdly stale DX routine that has not managed to make RAW a better show and, in fact, the DX return has made RAW a show that is as far from the cutting edge as one could be before approaching WCW levels.
Michaels has not really done anything this year, aside from working a fantastic program with Chris Jericho (at the very beginning of our grading period) that I can honestly say is going to set the WWE up for future success. Michaels is 44 years old and he won’t be one of the greatest performers in the world for very much longer. Why would the WWE waste time having Michaels and Triple H rehash DX to tickle the fancies of fans that can’t get over the fact that the Attitude era is over?
Are we ready? Hell yeah we’re ready….to move on.
It’s time to start making use of Shawn Michaels’ elite talent while he still has it. It’s time for the WWE to start building for the future instead of living in the past and the best way to do that is to have the up and coming stars take on guys like Shawn Michaels when they are legitimately ready to raise their games to the next level. It’s more productive than having Shawn shill merchandise and relive the glories of yesteryear.
6. Yuji Nagata (New Japan Pro Wrestling)
Mike Cranwell on Nagata: Recently, I made the following statement: “Yuji Nagata (former WCW US Champion) is probably the most undervalued and underrated amazing worker in the last 20 years.†The key word there: amazing.
Nagata kills a fool (image credit: New Japan Pro Wrestling)
I invite Jeff Hardy fans to watch the Nagata vs. Tanahashi series from 2007, the Nagata vs. Takayama Tokyo Dome matches from 2002 and 2003, and this year’s Nagata matches where he tries his best to teach Hirooki Goto how to SELL THE LEG. After watching these matches, come back and try to make an argument of how Jeff, or for that matter Matt, or jeez just frigging pick a guy, is better than Nagata. When you’re 1/3 of the way through said argument, and you’re stuck…stop. Just stop, and accept the facts.
New Japan, you do the same.
If New Japan is smart, they’ll either have Nagata defeat Nakamura in a couple weeks in their IWGP Heavyweight Title match, or have some sort of crazy finish where the belt gets held up, so that Nakamura can challenge Nagata for a rematch in the Tokyo Dome on 1/4/10. This is the only homegrown bout that NJ can put on that show that will draw any crowd whatsoever.
How lucky is New Japan that, at any given time, they have a main event – level wrestler sitting on their roster, who one minute they can pair with Tanahashi and bring him up to the next level (2007), the next they can pair with Goto, who finally looks like he learned the lessons Nagata kicked into him this year, and now, can bring up to be a more than credible challenger to Nakamura, who has decimated the Heavyweight division for almost a year now.
Nagata mixes in devastating roundhouse kicks and backdrop drivers with tremendous timing, selling, and the rare ability to make a vicious, brutal attacking style into an art form. Nagata’s work transcends simply working a good bout, as every single match he’s in is better for his mere presence and the tools that he brings to the table. That’s why he’s ahead of Tanahashi on this list, not to mention a WWE wrestler or two.
I’ll give New Japan some credit, as they recognize what they have in him enough that they will protect him. In this past year’s G1 Climax Tournament, he only lost one bout to pinfall – to Nakamura – and still didn’t make the semi-finals, where he’d have had to lose again. That’s good booking, and it keeps a guy strong in the fans’ eyes while still not putting him in a spot that you want younger guys.
Now though, with the Tokyo Dome and Japan’s WrestleMania coming up in six short weeks, it’s time to break the main eventer out of cobwebs, and let Nagata and Nakamura put on an early candidate for 2010 MOTY.
Yuji Nagata’s anything but undervalued on the TWD 50, as he roundhouse-kicks his way to the 6 spot, ninja-style.
5. Takashi Sugiura (Pro Wrestling NOAH)
Mike Cranwell on Sugiura: When you are the best tag team wrestler in the world today, you make the Top-5 in the TWD 50, it’s as simple as that.
Takashi Sugiura (image credit: Pro Wrestling NOAH)
If you’re a regular of my columns on TWD, you’ve heard me reference the 1/4/09 Misawa & Sugiura vs. Nakamura & Goto epic that will likely win the MOTY award in Japan (and on DVDVR as well). Misawa brought his best performance, for my money, since the Samoa Joe title defense in 2007, but what brought the match to the level that it got to was the work of Sugiura and Nakamura, especially when they faced one another. For my money, it was Sugiura who brought the most to the match (barely), as his performance was one for the ages, and one that quite frankly, made his career.
To name but a few of his other tremendous showings this year: 3/1, the second NOAH vs NJ tag that saw Milano Collection AT revive his career in the span of 20 minutes while Big Boss Sugi showed that the Tokyo Dome tag wasn’t a fluke; 5/5, the Okada match, where Sugiura dominated and decimated; Kobashi & Taniguchi vs. Sugiura & Shoizaki on 7/12, the match that showed the world that Kobashi was back…and Sugi would still whip his ass just the same (those three and the 1/4 tag are currently in my Top-13 for 2009).
Sugiura, who this year became a full-time heavyweight wrestler, has had to adjust to the heavyweight style to some degree, so his singles matches have been a bit uneven. His 7/20 IWGP Title match vs Hiroshi Tanahashi left some to be desired in how it was paced, but still ended up being a damn good match, that some people have greatly sung the praises of. NOAH was also smart enough to get him booked in New Japan’s G1 Climax Tournament this year, where Sugi basically got a week straight of on-the-job singles match training. I personally loved his 8/8 clash with Nakamura, and the difference between when he started the week, and when he carried Hirooki Goto to Goto’s best singles match of the year on 8/15 was very noticeable. The latter two matches are 22nd and 23rd on my 2009 MOTY list (and that’s a long list).
In tag matches, Sugiura has consistently high-tempo rage that ends up doubling as charisma, even though he’s not trying to make it so. It’s just there, which is what helps make the great ones great after all. He has these two-three minute bursts of sublime intensity in which he decimates whoever is in the ring with him, and lights the crowd on fire in the process. And of course, he does it within the context of the story being told, and he makes the story better by adding those elements that very few other wrestlers do.
As a singles competitor, in the past he has been guilty of trying to work too slowly, thinking that’s what the heavyweight style was about, as well as not knowing when to show the intensity, and actually (shockingly) coming across as bland. What he demonstrated in the Goto match was better pacing skills, as well as more consistency with his rage. Hopefully these skills will be out in full force during NOAH’s December tour, when Sugiura has to guide GHC Heavyweight Champion Go Shoizaki to a great match, and unfortunately look up at the lights at the same time.
Sugiura got a late start on his wrestling career, debuting at age 29 on December 23, 2000. From that match on, you could (honestly) see the potential for greatness. So while he may be 39 years old, in wrestling terms, it’s a young 39, with not a lot of mileage on his body. Hopefully NOAH will recognize this, and continue to build Sugi up next year, before giving him a second shot at the GHC, and more importantly, a chance to carry NOAH into the next decade, and lead the next generation of stars that Misawa strived to build.
Pro Wrestling NOAH’s number one heavyweight owns the 5 spot in the TWD 50, and for Takashi Sugiura, the 2010 elevator is headed up.
4. Bryan Danielson (World Wrestling Entertainment)
Jason Le Blanc on Danielson: I’ve heard a lot of people over the past few years chide those who claim that Bryan Danielson is the best wrestler in the world by pointing out Danielson’s look and musculature.  What the hell that has to do with actual wrestling, I will never know.
Bryan Danielson (image credit: Ring of Honor)
I would call Jim Ross a foremost expert in analyzing professional wrestling talent, seeing as how he has worked as the Executive Vice President of Talent Relations for the WWE in the past, not to mention the fact that he’s been calling the matches of a number of high caliber wrestlers for many years now.
Ross, in his own blog, had this to say about Danielson once:
“I watched ROH’s Bryan Danielson wrestle in Oakland and I told any one who would listen that the young man is a keeper. Great work ethic, unique skills, lots of character, and he wrestles like he is a “star” which is not something all wrestlers can do. I wished Bryan good luck as I left the arena in Oakland Monday and he went back to speaking with Shawn Michaels, which can’t be a bad thing for Bryan.â€
Wrestles like a star, you say? This is the same Jim Ross who has spent years calling the matches of stars like Ric Flair, Sting, “Stone Cold†Steve Austin, The Rock,and Shawn Michaels. I’d say Ross knows a thing or to about wrestling like a star.
Since Danielson dropped the Ring of Honor world championship to Homicide back in December of 2006, Danielson has probably done more losing than winning in terms of big matches. On his way out the door, Danielson worked with most of best in Ring of Honor and made them all look like a million dollars, including Davey Richards who just might be the future of singles wrestling in Ring of Honor.
The funny thing about that Danielson putting over others is that Danielson was more over right before he left Ring of Honor in August than he was back when he was champion. Danielson is one of a handful of wrestlers I’ve ever seen that could lose a hundred matches in a row and still be massively over, and not just any kind of massively over; we’re talking massively over with the fans chanting “best in the world,†even after losing a match.
Why? Because Danielson wrestles like a star and….well….he is a star.
During the past calendar year, Danielson has wrestled an excellent series of matches with Tyler Black, and a whole host of other great matches with the likes of Davey Richards, Austin Aries, Nigel McGuinness, Roderick Strong, Jerry Lynn, Chris Hero, and Johnny Gargano.
It was time for Danielson to leave Ring of Honor and move on to other things, as Danielson accomplished everything he possibly could with the company. The question now is will Danielson get a legitimate chance of being the star that he wrestles like. WWE would be foolish to not try and recapture the same energy that Danielson generated while he was in Ring of Honor. I’ve come to expect foolish things out of WWE though, so I’m rather concerned that the higher ups in Stamford will have problems with his “look.â€
Danielson is armed with the sort of knowledge and skill (thanks to his training with the likes of Shawn Michaels and William Regal) that will put him in real position to succeed in the WWE. It’s not a question of Danielson; it’s a question of Vince McMahon.
3. KENTA (Pro Wrestling NOAH)
Mike Cranwell on KENTA: As you will likely see soon enough, there is a great deal of debate on the wrestler TWD feels is both NOAH’s best, and the best Jr. Heavyweight wrestler in the World today.
KENTA (image credit: Ring of Honor)
It’s easy enough to hate on KENTA: He’s a good-looking badass who doesn’t do things the traditional way, at least in terms of selling. He will sh*t-kick you as soon as you say hello, he will fly, he will do any-damn-thing he wants to do, and there’s just not a whole helluva lot you can do about it. So ya, it’s easy to hate on KENTA.
So here’s why you shouldn’t:
He’s a good-looking badass who doesn’t do things the traditional way, at least in terms of selling. He will sh*t-kick you as soon as say hello, he will fly, he will do any-damn-thing he wants to do, and there’s just not a whole helluva lot you can do about it.
It’s real easy: KENTA is the Jr, Heavyweight of his generation, the same way that Jushin “Thunder†Liger was of his. Some people may say that a healthy Marufuji is better, but he’s done a lot of work in the Heavyweight division the last few years, and there are times that that work has messed with his ability to put on a good show.
And to top it all off, as you will see discussed soon enough, KENTA is leading the way in the evolution of the art of selling in Pro Wrestling NOAH…if not all of Japan.
NOAH is the breakaway company of the King’s Road Era – All Japan, so KENTA has had the distinct advantage of learning from three of the Four Corners of Heaven (Misawa, Kobashi, and Taue) as well as Jun Akiyama, about how to do everything in the ring. And while KENTA has certainly followed a lot of that style, he has also added to it.
This year, KENTA has had no less than two classic matches with Katsuhiko Nakajima, on 2/11 and 3/1. Hell just last night I had another writer on the site e-mail me to ask for some Puro links and say that the first match he’s watching as he gets into it is 2/11, and how amazing it was. So why were those matches amazing, beyond the talents of those involved?
Simple: The Evolution of the Art of Selling.
I’ve said it twice now, so I may as well explain it. Traditional selling involves making it completely obvious that the body part your opponent has targeted is hurting. Your opponent can see this, and will continue to target the body part, upon which time the story becomes about trying to stop them from doing that, while executing your own game plan.
What KENTA and Nakajima do is only show pain in the targeted area when their opponent is downed at their hands, and cannot see the damage being done. It adds another layer to the concept of a big-match “Battle of Attrition†(I refuse to use the word “War,†it’s an insult to the troops fighting real Wars all over the World). This added layer, which is not no-selling, becomes all-the-more important as the match gets into its finishing stretch. The finishing stretch then becomes more heated, as KENTA and Naja throw every last bomb they have at one another, and the end result? No matter who wins, both guys are elevated.
In the process, you have two matches in my Top-20, including the match that’s tied for second (3/1) of 2009. How did this come about? I have my theories, and you’ll have to tune in soon enough to hear them. For now though, TWD is pleased to recognize KENTA as the best Jr. Heavyweight wrestler in the World today, and of his generation. It takes a special wrestler to be named to the 3 spot on the TWD 50…it takes a legend to evolve a sport, and modernize it.
So go ahead and hate. Eventually, you’ll be cheering along, just like the rest of us have been all along.
2. Shinsuke Nakamura (New Japan Pro Wrestling)
Jason Le Blanc on Nakamura: CHAOS reigns supreme in New Japan Pro Wrestling, and if you don’t like it, prepare to have your septum deviated by the man at the epicenter of the revolution and the second greatest wrestler in the world today, Shinsuke Nakamura.
Nakamura and the Boma Ye (image credit: New Japan Pro Wrestling)
Given the way 2009 started in New Japan Pro Wrestling, I would have been surprised back in January if someone told me that Mr. Nakamura would finish the year ranked this high on the TWD 50. I would have figured that honor to have gone to Nakamura’s generational rival, Hiroshi Tanahashi.
New Japan kicked off the year with their big annual Tokyo Dome show (Wrestle Kingdom III) on January 4. The main event featured Tanahashi, the charismatic face of New Japan Pro Wrestling, defeating his mentor Keiji Mutoh for IWGP Heavyweight championship.
The next month, Tanahashi successfully defended the championship against Nakamura in a result that seemed to indicate that Nakamura would be playing second banana to Tanahashi in 2009. Key word in that sentence being “seemedâ€.
The following month, Nakamura began using a more physical and aggressive style in the ring, incorporating a series of strikes into his offence, including nasty kicks, a straight punch to the face, and of course the Boma Ye, a vicious looking knee to the face or the back of the head, which ever area of the skull Nakamura feels like shattering on the evening. On one night he might target the occipital lobe; on the other night we might see the temporal lobe get kneecapped.
The new found aggressiveness beautifully transitioned into a compelling storyline that featured Toru Yano turning on his tag team partner and GBH stable mate Togi Makabe in the midst of a match between Nakamura and Makabe. Yano wrapped a steel chair around Makabe’s cranium and helped Nakamura decimate not only Makabe but Tomoaki Honma, who ran down to break up the fight. From there, Nakamura left his former faction (RISE.) in the dust and formed a new faction called CHAOS out of just about everyone that associated with Makabe. What a burn.
Tanahashi may have been the champion during the first half, but Nakamura’s storylines were more compelling. Slowly but surely Nakamura began to rise up the totem poll until all of the sudden, Tanahashi dropped his championship to Manabu Nakanishi, and Tanahashi’s grip on the top spot in New Japan didn’t seem so firm.
Then came the G1 Climax, a tournament that Nakamura nearly ran the table in. Nakamura’s work rate during the tournament was phenomenal and it sent his stock through the roof, as the G1 Climax often does for the talent that performs well on New Japan’s grandest stage.
During the tournament, Tanahashi suffered a facial fracture that was attributed to a Boma Ye given to him be Nakamura in their G1 semifinal contest, a match won by Nakamura. The injury was a freak accident and actually occurred in the middle of a match, but New Japan made the most of a seemingly bad situation by using it to promote Nakamura’s new style.
Tanahashi’s injury forced him to vacate the title, which lead to New Japan announcing a match to determine a new IWGP champion: Nakamura vs. Makabe. Nakamura decisively defeated the 2009 G1 Climax champion to capture his third IWGP championship for a third time, elevating Nakamura’s stock to an all time high.
Doubt still remained in the minds of a few, considering Nakamura’s previous two reigns were laughably short. With Tanahashi’s return impending, some felt that Nakamura’s reign would be brief yet again. Nakamura quickly erased all doubt on November 8 by flattening Tanahashi once again in a successful IWGP championship defense.
Nakamura’s strong style revolution is the lead story in New Japan right now, as Nakamura is using CHAOS to return New Japan to its strong style roots. New Japan rightfully belongs to Nakamura right now, and his quest to find Inoki’s IWGP belt has drawn the ire of those in Inoki’s IGF promotion. We could be on the verge of an interpromotional war that could make Nakamura a HUGE star in Japan. Nakamura’s first chance to show the world if he can bring back strong style? December 5, when he steps into the ring with a man who is MORE than capable of helping make him a star…Yuji Nagata.
1. Chris Jericho (World Wrestling Entertainment)
Jason Le Blanc on Jericho: Over the past year and a half, there has not been a more effective performer in professional wrestling than Chris Jericho. There isn’t a weakness anywhere in Jericho’s game and he manages to turn just about everything he touches into solid gold. His wrestling is world class, his promos are world class and his value to the WWE is immeasurable.
Chris Jericho (image credit: WWE)
Jericho, simply put, is the WWE’s most reliable performer right now as he delivers beyond expectations just about every time out. Of all the people the WWE could have put in the ring with Steamboat in his brief wrestling comeback, they put him in the ring with Jericho, who made Steamboat look fantastic at Backlash.
McMahon called upon Jericho to work with Cena in December of last year when Cena returned from neck surgery. Jericho made Cena look like a million dollars that night, giving Cena immediate momentum upon his return. Jericho has a habit of giving everyone he faces a great deal of momentum.
Jericho also has a habit of turning even the worst segments into watchable ones. The image of Jericho strolling out to the stage with a nametag stuck directly to his bare chest provided us with one reason to bother watching the Bob Barker hosted episode of RAW. Jericho’s exchange with Barker during the show was priceless.
Jericho was also the best thing about the Ben Roethlisberger episode of RAW. The promo that he cut on the Steelers offensive line was absolutely fantastic.
If the WWE ever saw it fit to rebuild their tag team division, they would easily be able to do so if they built the division around Jericho and Big Show. The two have excellent chemistry and have been the best tag team the WWE has seen since the dissolution of The Miz and John Morrison.
Jericho is one of the handful of performers in the business right now that can make any crowd (including the notoriously free spirited fans in Canada and New York) react anyway he wants to at any given moment. Jericho has a firm grasp on the psychology of a promo, and there are never divided audiences involved with Chris Jericho matches as there are in John Cena matches. Jericho even got the crowd to hate him during his feud with John Cena at the tail end of 2008, a feat that illustrates just how great of a talent he is.
Jericho is so good at what does that fans actually stormed his car just outside of a live event when his car was stopped at a red light. Jericho politely asked fans to move so he could drive through, but two fans physically attacked Jericho, which lead to Jericho fighting back before cops arrived to diffuse the conflict. That kind of heat and marking out is RARE in the business these days.
Jericho’s feud with Mysterio this past year was gold, as was his program with Shawn Michaels, which concluded with an outstanding ladder match at the start of our grading period. Jericho’s program with Michaels was one of the best programs in wrestling this decade. The program, as Pro Wrestling Illustrated recently point out, displayed the best “creativity, believability, passion, and athleticism†the business has seen in seen in quite some time.
There is no better all around performer in professional wrestling right now than Chris Jericho. If given the choice to only watch one wrestler’s matches, there is no wrestler who I would rather watch more than Chris Jericho. Jericho adds something to every television program he is a part of, which is something that cannot be said of many of his main event counter parts.
When it comes to Jericho, we’re not left banging our head against the wall as we suffer through yet another DX skit that lives in the past, or wondering why it is that the WWE has to have him win son convincingly at the expense of others just to keep him over. Jericho is a performer who doesn’t need to win or lost to get over. Jericho gets it and has gotten it for quite sometime.
Here’s a look at the final rankings:
1. Chris Jericho (World Wrestling Entertainment)
2. Shinsuke Nakamura (New Japan Pro Wrestling)
3. KENTA (Pro Wrestling NOAH)
4. Bryan Danielson (World Wrestling Entertainment)
5. Takashi Sugiura (Pro Wrestling NOAH)
6. Yuji Nagata (New Japan Pro Wrestling)
7. Shawn Michaels (World Wrestling Entertainment)
8. Prince Devitt (New Japan Pro Wrestling)
9. CIMA (Dragon Gate Wrestling)
10. A.J. Styles (Total Non Stop Action Wrestling)
11. Hiroshi Tanahashi (New Japan Pro Wrestling)
12. The Undertaker (World Wrestling Entertainment)
13. Katsuhiko Nakajima (Kensuke Office Freelancer)
14. Masato Tanaka (Pro Wrestling ZERO-1)
15. Alex Shelley (Total Non Stop Action Wrestling)
16. Naruki Doi (Dragon Gate Wrestling)
17. C.M. Punk (World Wrestling Entertainment)
18. Naomichi Marufuji (Pro Wrestling NOAH, All Japan Pro Wrestling)
19. Minoru (All Japan Pro Wrestling)
20. Desmond Wolfe/Nigel McGuinness (Total Non Stop Action Wrestling)
21. Shingo Takagi (Dragon Gate Wrestling)
22. Edge (World Wrestling Entertainment)
23. Rey Mysterio (World Wrestling Entertainment)
24. Davey Richards (Ring of Honor, FIP, Dragon Gate)
25. Masato Yoshino (Dragon Gate Wrestling)
26. Susumu Yokosuka (Dragon Gate Wrestling)
27. Jerry Lynn (Ring of Honor)
28. Samoa Joe (Total Non Stop Action Wrestling)
29. Chris Hero (Ring of Honor, Pro Wrestling Guerrilla, Pro Wrestling NOAH)
30. Kota Ibushi (Dramatic Dream Team, Pro Wrestling NOAH
31. Christian (World Wrestling Entertainment)
32. Keiji Mutoh (All Japan Pro Wrestling)
33. John Morrison (World Wrestling Entertainment)
34. Magnum TOKYO (HUSTLE)
35. YAMATO (Dragon Gate Wrestling)
36. Kenta Kobashi (Pro Wrestling NOAH)
37. Kensuke Sasaki (Kensuke Office Freelancer)
38. Kofi Kingston (World Wrestling Entertainment)
39. BxB Hulk (Dragon Gate Wrestling)
40. Milano Collection A.T. (New Japan Pro Wrestling)
41. Takeshi Morishima (Pro Wrestling NOAH)
42. Doug Williams (Total Non Stop Action Wrestling)
43. Tyler Black (Ring of Honor)
44. MEN’s Teioh (Big Japan Wrestling)
45. Suwama (All Japan Pro Wrestling)
46. Toshiaki Kawada (Pro Wrestling ZERO1)
47. Dragon Kid (Dragon Gate Wrestling)
48. Negro Casas (CMLL)
49. Minoru Suzuki (Freelancer)
50. Kazuchika Okada (New Japan Pro Wrestling)
Promotions represented on the TWD 50
World Wrestling Entertainment: 10
Dragon Gate Wrestling: 8
New Japan Pro Wrestling: 6
Total Non Stop Action Wrestling: 5
Pro Wrestling NOAH: 5
Ring of Honor: 4
All Japan Pro Wrestling: 3
Kensuke Office: 2
Pro Wrestling ZERO1: 2
CMLL: 1
Hustle: 1
DDT: 1
Big Japan: 1
Freelancer: 1
SURVIVOR SERIES IS TONIGHT! COME RIGHT BACK HERE TO TWD TO GET ALL YOUR LIVE UPDATES ON THE PPV, AS WELL AS A RECAP AND REVIEW AFTERWARD!
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Great start, guys. It’s nice to see Williams get some well deserved attention for his ventures outside of TNA, since the company seems to want to hold him back.
Seriously, he should be heading the British Invasion, not Magnus.
Agreed. Magnus should be in a “prodigy” role, where Williams is giving him the Yoda treatment, and one day Magnus will surpass him…just not yet.
Awesome stuff guys! It’s great to see such a wide variety of International talent being featured already, helps to break up the normal monotomy of most American and Canadian wrestlers.
Doug Williams deserves his spot, as does Kawada IMO. Both are guys who seem to be overlooked for one reason or another, but they can both put on one hell of a show when they get started!
And our RoH guru scores major points for the Kawada props!
Haha, I’m liking these points! What can I say? Seriously gotten into Puro over the past few months!
Well you know I’m not gonna complain about that! Msg me if you’re ever looking for anything amazing to watch.
The fact that know how this list ends makes me feel important.
I’m actually intrigued to see where Alex Shelly ends up. I had him in the top ten, but I was a buffer vote.
You’re not the only one who had him higher than Jeff Hardy…ooh too soon?
There are CMOTY? Okay, I’m hooked. Where the heck can one view these matches that you doubled over laughing, Puro Dude?
Ahh Shane, I always thought you were smart! There are CMOTY in my world yes, haha!
The match from 2006: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O5y2iVqCfw
Part 1 of the rematch from 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJvKkZx5BOc (Part 2 is the first link to the right)
As a bonus, you get to hear the greatest non-Kobashi/Mutoh theme music in Japan!
Let me know what you think of them both!
Oh man, I used to hold a special place in my heart for only the Super Smash Bros. for comedy in matches. Macha Mummy is too damn awesome. I was laughing my butt off last night despite battling a cold. Loved them.
Female Mecha Mummy’s Rack > Colds & Swine Fever
Just saw one of the profiles that will be going up in the next 10 for this, and all I can say is WOW. That is some major league writing we have here.
Seems as we get higher (rather lower) we get a bit more in-depth with these guys.
It’s like a history lesson mixed with a lottery, as you read trying to see where your favorite might land.
Shane, I noticed the same thing as I was writing them. I tend to write a lot, and so I’ve had an inner cap on how much I want to talk about guys, for the sake of the readers, and because really, 2000 words aren’t necessary about each guy.
You’re right though, and it will continue to be like that – at least to some degree, especially with one guy in particular coming up soon.
Christian should have been number 1.
The POPS he is getting are one of the best in the WWE and matches are excellent!
However, in order for him to become WWE or World Heacyweight Champion we all know what needs to happen; Christian 2005 needs to return in all his glory!
I suppose that would depend on what you consider to be a great pop. When I think of a pop, I think of what people did when Austin and The Rock or Mankind came out. NO ONE in the WWE is getting that kind of a pop right now. I should know, I attended a recent Wrestlemania and I’ve seen Austin and Rock live in the same show.
Christian’s pops are alright, but I wouldn’t say they’re indicative of the fact that he MUST me made the top guy in the company. That is, of course, if those pops aren’t canned.
I think he’s actually better now than he was in 2005.
Remember Hogan’s babyface run in ‘02? Arenas exploded for him, and yet somehow RAW’s ratings and PPV buyrates dropped. There’s a monumental difference between fans who are at the live events cheering for a guy, and fans who aren’t being willing to tune in to watch him wrestle, and pay for PPVs where his matches are prominently featured.
Christian is a great technical wrestler and a joy to watch, but Jason was 100% right in saying that Captain Charisma is missing something, and that something is what separates the very good, from the great.
I enjoyed seeing kensuke Sasaki on the list. I’m not a long time fan of Japanese wrestling, but I remember respecting it from my many reads of Pro Wrestling Illustrated issues. His name was one I remembered well.
Then I saw him live an hour down the road in a tag match with Nakajima against Keith Walker and Oliver John. Wow.
That’s a pretty awesome experience I bet. Walker is a big, tough guy who can bump as good as he can crush, and for some reason Oliver John rings a bell too.
Davey Richards and Edge aren’t that high?
In my opinion, Mysterio is too high up.
JLB did a tremendous job on Jerry Lynn. One of my all time favorites. TWD>PWI
Edge isn’t that high because of his various health issues this year. He would be much higher if he was. A healthy Edge is top 12 material.
I think Richards could be much higher on this list as well…I think of everyone on this list, he has the most potential to be a lot higher next time.
You can probably blame me for Richards, he wasn’t one of the guys I pushed on here, and Jason had to get me on board with him even being this high. It’s not that I don’t know he’s awesome, he’s just not someone I see with any regularity.
Mysterio vs Jericho was the best match on virtually every show they had it on. Do you think it was all Jericho?
I’m starting to think that all the little kiddies out there won’t see “Superman” aka John Cena in this list. I can hear them crying now…
I don’t know about that Beeby…
Beebs! We haven’t even unveiled the Top-20 yet! I mean if Cena’s gonna be anywhere, it’s gonna be high.
If Cena is rated higher than Edge, then I will riot! LOL
I love this list and the writing about each person is outstanding. No doubt the best list I’ve ever seen.
Impressive yet again.
This is easily one of the most arbitrary and pointless lists I’ve ever seen. Of the names revealed so far, only FIVE are WWE-contracted wrestlers….you do realize they are the elite wrestling organization in the WORLD. The best wrestling is not Japanese, it’s not in a six-sided ring, and it’s not in some high school gymnasium; it’s the WWE…people aren’t sitting at home right now dreaming of headlining Bound for Glory in front of 1,000 empty seats, they want to be at Wrestlemania in front of a worldwide audience. I have had the great pleasure to watch Chris Hero live at an indy show, but he’s seriously in over Christian, Kofi, and John Morrison?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Kofi Kingston is taking his push and hitting the ground running. He’s gonna be a top star on THE top wrestling organization. Edge is 22?!?!?!?!? Behind some Dragon Gate guy? Jerry Lynn is on the list, really, I mean come on. Maybe in 1998 Jerry Lynn is on the list. But perhaps you’re just saving all of the good wrestlers for the final 20, you could prove me completely wrong; but if you’re top 2 isn’t some combination of Chris Jericho and Shawn Michaels, then you’ll once again prove the second rate nature of this site.
One of my favorite songs by the legendary cowboy-punk band The New Duncan Imperials goes like this: “It ain’t good, it ain’t bad, it’s pop-pop-popular.” A catchy song, but not exactly the most compelling argument. Kind of like trying to build a decent critique only to negate it by tossing out a personal insult at the very end.
Can you see the sun from inside your box? Oops. I guess I did it too.
I think your “name” is an indicator of the second rate, not to mention narrow minded, nature of your comment. Why is WWE the “premier” wrestling company in the world? Because it happens to be in the U.S.? Your comment about the best wrestling in the world being in the WWE is also arbitrary. I suppose you also think that the top 50 should all be WWE wrestlers as well.
Just because you don’t know some of the names on this list doesn’t mean they aren’t better than some of the people you watch every single week. Also, not EVERYONE dreams of working in the WWE, or did you NOT read the interview with Davey Richards’s promoter?
You need to come at me with better logic than this guy is better because he’s in the WWE. That shows ZERO thought and ZERO effort because ANYONE could come to that conclusion without having watched one match.
You are entitled to your opinion and I’m entitled to disagree with you….point is you’ve come here to my…ahem…”second rate” site to debate US, so THANK YOU. Thank you for taking your apparently first rate time to check out our “second rate” site. Do reply with comments on our “generic” look and whatever else you feel you need to do for a cheap pop.
You do know this was based on ability to wrestle, story tell, and cut promos…not on highest quantity of pain killers one can ingest…right?
Here’s an amazing concept for you: All lists like this are completely arbitrary, subjective, and any other term you want to use. Hell, you didn’t even get that part right, saying this was the most arbitrary than others? They’re all the freaking same! So strike one on you.
Here’s another, equally amazing concept for you: There’s more than one high-end company in the world. As such, there are more than 8 main event wrestlers in the world. Hell, the WWE had two of our Japanese guys on this list in for tryouts between last fall and spring, and a 3rd who barely didn’t make the list (Go Shoizaki) turned down the WWE. But wait, that must mean he’s a moron, and any mitigating circumstances don’t matter, right?
I had the pleasure of watching Chris Hero wrestle two nights ago. He did NOTHING that he did in a NOAH ring, and yet he was still awesome. He can wrestle several styles, and get over in any country. That’s why he’s so high on this list, as that means more than working for Vince in our books.
What in the blue hell does sitting at home dreaming about main eventing anything have to do with this list? This is about overall talent in the company. Our list vs your comparison is like apples to sand. You should probably shake that out by the way.
EDGE HAS BEEN INJURED, OR HAVE YOU NOT EVEN BEEN WATCHING THE PRODUCT THAT YOU’RE PIMPING?!
Seriously, Kofi wouldn’t have made this list had it not been for his last couple months. Can’t exactly put a guy on a list from a “sports entertainment” company who they saddle with a gimmick so he doesn’t even have to talk.
If you don’t know anything about Dragon Gate, don’t talk about it…you’re having enough problems talking about the things you do “know” about.
You’re obviously one of those people who booed Jerry Lynn. Guess what, age doesn’t mean he sucks.
Be sure to let us know what you think of our placement of all the WWE main eventers you love so much. And perhaps next time you decide to shoot your mouth off, read the criteria that we’re judging guys on first.
He has a problem with Jerry Lynn but not Shawn Michaels? Never mind my Shawny doesn’t do half the stuff Lynn still does in the ring. I know Shawn’s Shawn and all but damn. I’ve seen Jerry Lynn wrestle and for his age, he’s no joke. Kind of like Steamboat but on another level.
You see? This is why I despise marks.
And if this guy actually watched wrestling for the actual “wrestling” part of the program, he’d know that half the guys from DragonGate pwn Jeff Hardy every day of the week without just being glorified spot monkeys. Those guys can actually mat wrestle.
Tenechia PWNS
T, you’ve been talking to Shane too much. I’m a Jeff Hardy fan and I know that he has no place on this list, but more importantly I’m here to defend that he’s not a “spot monkey” (thank you very much Shane for coining that phrase…).
If this was a top 50 US wrestlers list then I would say that Jeff would get on it with all things considered such as merchandise sales, popularity with the fans, and the ability to put on a good match (even without using ladders).
Well don’t just talk the game good man…prove that Jeff Hardy isn’t a spot monkey. He’s not a technical wrestler, he’s not a smooth luchadore, he doesn’t work the style of a cruiserweight, he’s not a striker, he’s not a submission artist…so what’s left? So many rush to say what Jeff Hardy isn’t without actually saying what he is.
High flyer is not an option, because that’s not a style. Plenty of wrestlers, whether they’re technicians like Danielson, or heavyweight powerhouses like Hernandez, fly.
I also have to say Shane Howard didn’t coin that phrase. I can remember that phrase being used for Rob Van Dam back in the late 90’s. It would also be used to describe Sabu.
Beeby, one thing you just have to understand is that I do not and will not agree with you on much of anything that has to do with Jeff Hardy anymore. People like this well misinformed idiot that we’re arguing with now has ruined my perspective of Jeff Hardy. Yes. I got the term from Shane because it’s just easier to say “glorified spot monkey” than “mediocre mat wrestler who got famous for doing stupid career ending spots during his matches”.
Come up worth your own list then. Any half wit, could have included the names you have above. I expected to be disappointed by this list, I wasn’t. Tremendous job to all!!!
Thanks! TWD really appreciates it! Those guys worked really hard on it.
It’s official. TWD is greatness. When you have haters that means they’re feeling the pressure. We rock. Suck on that marks.
Okay, so admittedly we got off to a rough start here. I’ll admit I have a North American bias, and I’m not saying that the stuff from Japan or in the indies is bad, I just feel like you may be underrepresenting guys from WWE, which I think is a problem for this site in general. I mean, Dragon Gate, which is not going to be well known to most North American fans, is more well represented than WWE. Again, I’ll grant that being well known doesn’t make you good, but there are some extremely talented WWE performers who are notably absent from this list. Also, if Edge being injured is a mitigating factor, then he shouldn’t make the list at all. However, all things equal, Edge was the top heel that I watched wrestle over the last 2 or 3 years. Also, you guys really need to tone down the Jeff Hardy bias. If drawing ability, fan reaction, and work rate are part of your criteria, then Jeff Hardy sans leaving WWE would have ranked quite highly on your list, no? He’s come a long way from just doing crazy spots, he was telling really compelling stories toward the end of his run with WWE. His matches with CM Punk were far from being spotfests and were some his best work. I still stick by the fact that Shawn and Jericho should be one and two, Shawn because, well, he is Shawn Michaels, and he still works a crowd better than just about anyone I’ve ever seen, and Jericho because he was already a top worldwide star and I honestly don’t know if he’s ever done better work than he is now.
Jeff Hardy isn’t in the business anymore. And while I will give you that Hardy has improved over his career, in my opinion, he’s not a better worker than anyone that has been listed. This isn’t bias. This is an assessment. Us not recognizing someone as being one of the top 50 performers in the world is not bias.
Tell me how Jeff Hardy is better than Kensuke Sasaki? Tell me how Jeff Hardy is better than Shingo? Please tell me how Jeff Hardy is better than Davey Richards? Throw the marketing machine that was behind Jeff Hardy behind any of those guys, all three of whom are more reliable and haven’t left the business on two separate occasions, and tell me how Jeff Hardy is better?
There’s more to this business than just the WWE. Just because the WWE happens to be the largest promotion in the world doesn’t automatically qualify a certain number of their performers to make this list anymore than it qualifies Podunk Pro Wrestling to have a certain number of people qualify for this list.
Lists are arbitrary, but we’re not here to ration spots to certain promotions based on the fact to make more money than others.
You can find our coverage of OTHERS wrestling promotions to be a problem and claim that makes us second rate, or you can take it for what it is, and that is us shining a light on the entire business that Vince McMahon would just assume not exist, just as he did many years when he made the business decision to break the code of the territories and sign away everyone else’s talent.
Vince might be willing to ignore the rest of the business, as are many WWE fans, but we are not. While Vince may have put a half assed effort into having a “industry news” section on his webpage, he just as quickly removed it.
You have the right to say what you will, and I encourage to keep on saying it, because debate is something that we do not shy away from.
I, however, choose to disagree with your assessment that we are “second rate” and that not necessarily ranking more WWE talents in the 50 is a “problem” for our site.
For that matter, this list isn’t even finished yet. Why not wait and see what happens first before complaining about how underrepresented the WWE is?
As for your comment about Jericho and Michaels, all I will say is stay tuned.
Well…at least you admit that we got off to a rough start. And now that you’ve calmed down, I can throw up a real counter instead of just tossing up a pot shot at your user name.
There are two key problems I see in your line of thinking:
1. You still haven’t defined “what” Jeff Hardy is if he *isn’t* a spot monkey.
And
2. Your claims that we don’t cover WWE enough are…well…wholly untrue.
Let’s look at the first one.
You say Jeff is now more than a spot monkey, but you still haven’t said what he is. Is he a great technical mat wrestler? (No). Is he a great striker a la Undertaker? (No). Is he a smoother luchador? (No).
To repeat the words of fellow site owner Jason Le Blanc, you (and Jeff marks in general) are quick to rush in and tell us what Jeff isn’t, when it’s painfully obvious that nobody has even the slightest clue what he *is*.
I’ll also reiterate that “high flyer” is not a type. Evan Bourne is a high flyer. Then again, so was Macho Man during his earlier years. Outside of the fact that both of them have several key moves that involve the top rope, they have nothing in common.
Technically speaking, Undertaker can be a high flyer too. So can Chris Jericho.
Yes, part of this is drawing power but that’s not even close to the biggest part. Technically speaking, Pizza Hut has more drawing power than a local establishment, but does anybody really think Pizza Hut is better?
I can’t say where anybody else put him on their ballot, so I can’t say if he made the list or not. What I can say is that he did not even come remotely close to making mine, and from there I can explain why.
First, Jeff Hardy has no overwhelmingly solid move set. Yeah, he has that one cool backflip and he can run around a lot, but I can do that too. A Jeff Hardy match never really leaves me saying “Wow, that’s one talented dude.” Think about it like this: Would Jeff Hardy ever be a believable participant in a submission match? How about an Iron Man match? The answer is “no” because Jeff doesn’t know any moves. No booker would be able to expect us to suspend our disbelief that Jeff Hardy can somehow over come an opponent who would probably be a machine when it comes to grounding opponents.
Also, Jeff does not make *my* list because of his abysmal mic skills and storytelling ability. While *you* might get something out of his promos when they stand alone, try lining them up against some of the real talkers in the business (not just WWE either). Jeff stumbles…a lot. Jeff stutters…a lot. Jeff has trouble with pace and rhythm…a lot.
He’s also not a good stand alone story teller. Sure, people might get excited to *see* him, but name me a storyline he was in that was compelling where he was the clear number one talent. Of late, he put on a few good short runs against Edge and CM Punk, but they’re Edge and CM Punk. It’s hard *not* to have good matches with them. The point is that I’ve never…ever…eeeeeeeevvvvvvvveeeeerrrrrrr seen Jeff Hardy carry a feud or work with someone to a level that it forces the other person to raise their game.
As for your comment of “There isn’t enough WWE coverage here.”
As of right now, 5 articles are WWE on the front page out of 13. By tomorrow afternoon, that number will be closer to 7 or so again. While I do agree that our highest percentage of coverage should be WWE, I think staying around 6 or 7 on the front page at a time with an occasional peak (like the 8 a few days ago) or 5 (like now) is fine.
Besides, we’re rolling out a new site layout soon that should make that entire argument a non-factor.
Damnit Jason, I told you in private…stop ripping on Podunk Pro Wrestling! I love that shit! Krav McGraw is the bizzle yo!
nice
Well I think you don’t understand that this list is based on this year not the last 10 years. There will be another TWD 50 next year based on everything that happened that year and what the wrestlers did. This isn’t an all time greatest list. This is a yearly one
Come up with your own list then. Any half wit, could have included the names you have above. I expected to be disappointed by this list, I wasn’t. Tremendous job to all!!!
Wow, can I seriously get invited to the next group circle jerk, I mean, that’d be terrific.
It’s between 10pm and 11pm on Saturday nights. Bring your own towel though, we run out kind of fast.
We don’t need towels, Ray. I bought a batch of Nittany Lions jerseys at a thrift store. They’ll do, Ray. They’ll do nicely.
Didn’t Iowa and Ohio State do that already?
Do you expect us to in-fight on this topic?
By the way, since you called us a second-rate site and all…how many sites do you know of that are interviewing Jesse Ventura, doing a sit-down with ANY Japanese wrestler let alone one of the Top-10 in the World today, and are interviewing not one, but two of the top 3 independent bookers in North America, all in the span of a single week?
Ya, that sure sounds fluky to me too!
Somebody should tell me what the town of Ignorance is like, ’cause I haven’t been there in awhile.
If this site is “second rate,” I’d like to see a first rate site. Because, y’know, I’d probably have to quit my job and just read it. I mean I’m close enough to that already. Uh-oh, the boss!
Or at least it will be on Saturday nights! Boom, boom, tish
Bessler, you removed that bar statement! Now my comment makes no sense. Damn you and your conniving ways… LOL
Yeah, I thought of something better. Making you look silly is a bonus.
Man, are we jerks or what?
yes you are because according to Jeff Hardy your all circle jerks!
I’m always missing the good stuff.
I really think Shelley should be higher…really…
Like…say around….4?
Any case that Shelley should be higher is a good one. He probably would be higher if TNA didn’t give him crap for material like WCW did with Jericho.
One day, Raymond….one day Shelley will turn on Sabin. It will be glorious.
Shelley was higher on mine Raybert, that’s all I’s gots to says abooooot thats!
Dude we’ve had so many e-mails and lists at this point, I don’t even remember what the hell I rated him. Either way, the man is one of the best in the world. Second….coming….Jericho
What do you think of Sabin?
I feel that he is underrated.
This list just keeps getting better. I really appreciate the write ups on each superstar. Some of these guys I have never even heard of while some I’m starting to learn about. I have no doubt this list is the way it should be and I marked out at seeing Shelley on this list! Ha!
I’m willing to bet that if some B/R mark sees Taker at 12, they’ll probably act like our resident Jeff markist (Not Beeby. The other guy.) You guys are just kicking so much ass with this writing! Mike, you put Taker/Shawn over Austin/Hart? Ahhh well…I would too. And I’m still trying to decide if Taker/Michaels beats Hart/Michaels from Mania 12.
Nakajima still has me scared. 21 and kicking that much ass?
It’s Naja’s knowledge of how to tell a story that scares me. If he ever changes his mind about that heavyweight thing, Naja/Okada in 2016 could be the best match in 21 years.
Uhhhhhhhhh, the first 20 minutes of Hart/HBK is so piss-poor boring that the match drops hugely because of it. The next 10 is only crappy. The next 32 is worthy of being the Main Event on the biggest show of the year. I will never understand how anyone can say that 20 minutes of rest holds is telling a story. It’s pointless crap, and it was probably only done b/c Bret & Shawn couldn’t stand one another & couldn’t agree on what to do to open the match.
To each his own. You may have disliked it but I think it was pretty good considering all things. Maybe I’m just stubborn but I still can’t say Taker/Michaels is the greatest match I’ve ever seen because I think Kurt Angle gives Shawn a run for his money. This coming from a huge Shawn mark.
Ehh, Angle/Michaels was really great, but it was missing that extra undefinable thing that makes truly great matches truly great. And sleeping through the first 20 minutes of Hart/HBK isn’t fair.
Ahh, so it’s a sentimental thing, you shoulda said that! Totally understand that.
I’m not a mark for either guy per se, and ya I knew Taker was winning that match. In that situation it’s like a higher level suspension-of-disbelief deal where b/c you know how it will end, you have to blank that out as much as you can and just enjoy the match. And I’m not gonna lie, the match felt very much like a King’s Road Era bout between Misawa and either of the dudes whose last name starts with a K.
Once in awhile, I’ll be watching a match and it’s so great that I *want* it to be what I’d consider a ***** match. That was Y2J/HBK WM XIX. At the end I had it not quite there, but easily Top-5 WM matches ever, and yes, it’s amazeballs.
I think you and a lot of people are gonna be intrigued by where Angle is on this list and what I have to say about him. And let there be no doubt, when Angle is talked about, it will be written by me.
Ha Ha No problem Mikey. Yeah…I’m a girl. I’m real sensitive about these things.
I tried to make myself believe that it could happen and after Shawn kicked out of that Last Ride a part of me started to believe it *could* happen.
Oh you’re writing about Angle huh? I can’t wait for that!
So, we get Shelley, no Sabin?
Thanks to JLB, I was able to view some of the G1 earlier this year and I watched all of Tanaka’s matches. He is masterful.
Shelley has proven that he can actually work a match. In all the years he’s wrestled, I’ve never once seen Sabin work a match that didn’t make me think “Jeff Hardy.” We all felt the same.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESwfjfkpqFc#movie_player
He did a good job at working this match with Senchi at Bound for Glory 2006.
I realize now why I don’t like this site. You are Fox News. I don’t dislike you because you say stupid, asinine, pointless things; I dislike you because you self-righteously, self-assuredly say stupid, asinine, pointless things and maintain that anyone who doesn’t fit the narrative you’ve scripted for what makes one thing better than another is obviously an idiot, because the world you all have constructed for yourselves is clearly the reality in which we all live. Just get over yourselves. Peace.
Self righteous? That’s pretty funny coming from a guy who posts under an alias and rode in here on his first comment proclaiming us to be a second rate site.
So because you don’t agree with our list and found your coming in here under an alias to be a….how did you say….stupid, asinine, and pointless thing….we are Fox News?
Well hell everybody…let’s just start writing for this one guy right here. Ladies and gentlemen…this guy who can’t even post under his real name is our audience…in fact…everything we write must now agree with what he thinks…and if we don’t do this…we’re all just living in a constructed reality.
Either way…thanks for commenting and being open minded and all. Next time we’ll post a list that is 80 percent composed of WWE talent so that you don’t think we’re stupid, self righteous, self assured, second rate, and any other S word you can think of.
You shouldn’t be generalizing between all of the writers on here. Of the more than a dozen writers here at The Wrestling Daily, less than half of them have had anything to do with you. Those that have were simply stating their point as you did, and everyone’s entitled to their opinion.
Don’t let your experience from one article change your outlook on this site. Take a look around and see what you think. There’s usually a good interview or two to read.
We’re not Fox News – we work far harder and make far less than they do.
I’m trying to decipher what it is you want from us. Do you want weak-minded simpletons who only write about the WWE, and who aren’t strong enough in their convictions to stand by what they write? That way of course, you can ride in on a white horse and save the day whenever they say something that is obviously stupid, asinine, etc. Or do you say that because coming to a site that challenges you and your viewpoint on Puroresu – er, my bad, Pro Wrestling just isn’t reasonable? I mean, the audacity of an American and a Canadian who combined have been to several WrestleManias to dare, dare like something outside of the glorious realm of Vince McMahon’s veritable Garden of Eden that is the majesty of WORLD WRESTLING ENTERTAINMENT? The natural attempt that your mind made to expand the second you saw the word Japan must’ve sent shockwaves through your system.
Not one single person who has replied to your posts has called you wrong for disagreeing with anything we have published. You obviously came to this list expecting to see one thing, and didn’t see it. Your natural instinct was to react negatively to not finding what you expected to find, and you voiced it. The problem was, you didn’t have the backbone to put your name behind your words, and you voiced said words in a decidedly confrontational manner.
The fact is, you brought the heat on yourself, and then you didn’t like it when the kitchen burned you. The funny thing is, “peace” or not, you’re reading every word I’ve said, and Jason before me. You have far too big of an ego to not come back and see how we responded to your continued ignorance.
So here’s my deal to you: When you grow a set and can pass a drug test (unlike your Nero-Hero), admit that you’re around again, and see if you can’t play like a rational adult. Until then, simply keep lurking in the shadows, judging without attempting to understand.
The ironic thing about all this? Jeff Hardy is all about exploration and learning the vast nuances of the World around him. You say you’re a Jeff Hardy fan, but you don’t embrace a single ideology that he follows.
Then again…maybe that’s not such a bad thing either.
1. “You are Fox News.”
Thank you!
I love Fox News.
2. “I dislike you because you self-righteously, self-assuredly say stupid, asinine, pointless things and maintain that anyone who doesn’t fit the narrative you’ve scripted for what makes one thing better than another is obviously an idiot, because the world you all have constructed for yourselves is clearly the reality in which we all live.”
What’s it like to be self loathing?
I chose your most recent comment to reply to, though this is relevant to all of your posts on here. I will avoid taking a vicious or condescending tone with you in an attempt to make a point clear.
You say that our site, much like this list, ignores the WWE too much. What leads you to say that? I guarantee 50 percent of the articles written on this site through the past three months have been WWE-related.
We did not set out to become another Web site writing about WWE; that was never the goal of TWD. This site was formed to set a new standard, to help expand the horizons of wrestling journalism. Posting only Raw recaps and pleas of innocence for Jeff Hardy isn’t going to help anyone discover what’s truly out there in the world in professional wrestling.
When I joined this site, I only watched WWE and TNA. I had been to one indy show. That was it. Now, since opening my eyes and seeing what else is out there, I can’t stand watching WWE anymore, and I am much harsher in my views on TNA. The norm I had developed as quality wrestling and programming has been shattered under the weight of other options.
This list isn’t about fame. It’s not about who makes the most money or has the best name recognition. It’s about the performers who certain members of our staff deemed to be the best in the world. You won’t find many top WWE stars here because, honestly, they’re not among the best. Open your eyes to the world around you and enjoy learning about wrestling outside of the big two. That’s why we’re here.
If you don’t like the site, why do you keep posting stupid, asinine, pointless things? And as for calling this site Fox News? Now you’re just being stupid, asinine, and pointless. (Oh wait, think I just said that).
thank god for the twd 50!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thank your mr leblanc and mr cranwell for letting me discover puro on this site(i now know why i always loved liger and dragon in wcw)i am now going 2 spend my days watching puro on youtube….you have ruined my life(NOT)
then again i loved all cruiserweights in wcw thats the one thing about that promotion that everyone misses
Hey, girls can get into Puro too, just ask Lady T & Hayley! So be sure to get that lovely lady of yours into it.
Puro: It’s better than bonding over porn.
ad to anyone who ever got to see awesome tanaka live(holding hand up) it really was that good
Mr. Wick….was that not the greatest picture of the Sliding D ever?
yes……and as far as tanaka awesome i saw one of there first matches outside philly(had it in queens for a tv taping)….i drank a bottle of absolut before the show and i still remember that match….i also saw rvd jerry lynn at another show…if rvd WAS still a full time wrestler where does everyone think he would be on this list??(if he would even make it)
Off the top of my head, I’d think I would’ve pushed for him to be in the Top-20, of course depending on what the E was allowing him to do in terms of match length.
TWD 50 rocks! it is so much better than PWI and The Wrestling Obesevers rankings. Can’t wait for the TWD 20
Thanks for helping me get to know puroresu better.
The 20 will come around when I *finally* finish hammering out each girl’s “hot and nots”
Everyone is getting to know Puroresu better, staff included.
Thanks for continuing to read our stuff Ben!
Not gonna lie, this Benjamin David cat seems smart! Glad you’re liking the list & learning Puro!
I have to laugh at the marks that say you guys are second rate, when in only a three month span you made it into the top 1,000,000 overall, in the top 250,000 american, and the top 250,000 indian websites in terms of alexa traffic rating.
You guys keeping growing like that and you’ll have to start using this as a theme: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3hPQ6t3fes
now as far as the list goes…This has got to be one of the best lists out there at this point in the time because you use clear and concise criteria, you aren’t putting major focus on just wrestlers in the big two and you don’t allow kayfabe to affect your decisions.
I’ve been following this and the site since day 1 and I will continue to do so. I have made it a habit to check The Wrestling Daily at least once or twice a day. Keep it up guys!
On behalf of TWD, thanks for the kind words! We hope to grow even more over the next 3 months and one day I could easily see us as one of the top 10 wrestling websites in the world.
Make sure to follow TWD through Myspace. Every single article that is posted here is posted as a blog on the TWD Myspace page with a link to the full article.
Great Lucifer’s Beard, if it isn’t a learned wrestling fan!
Thank you for your kind words, trust me, it’s comments like that that make the nightly novella e-mails that put this list together worthwhile.
And for anyone who reads that first comment & thinks we’re gonna cater to people who agree with us and that’s it, no. It’s not our style either on here or in our non-TWD lives. All we want is that if you’re going to challenge what we write, do so respectfully and thoughtfully. Respect the work we’re doing – respect the effort and the caring that goes into it. Otherwise, you’ll get treated like that Hardy smark did, and what good does that do for anyone?
i may sound a little ignorant but why are there so few heavyweight wrestlers in here…. i mean seems to be dominated by junior heavyweights and cruiserweights. not hating just asking
No worries, you’re welcome to ask!
Pretty much anyone from RoH & Dragon Gate will be a Jr. because that’s the weight class that the majority of their workers are.
You know, you could blame it on it being an extension of us as a society all being about having things faster, now now now! Or maybe the Jr.’s are simply more entertaining. Either way, I know for myself, unless it’s either main eventers or great comedy acts (anyone from Colt Cabana & Delirious in RoH to Masao Inoue in NOAH), I’d rather watch the Jr.’s. Without the territory system in place, most Heavyweights in North America just didn’t learn it like their predecessors did, and their work just isn’t as enjoyable. That’s why HBK and ‘Taker are having the best match on WrestleMania, and Orton’s match w/HHH got shit on.
Seriously, look at the North American Heavyweights out there who are good, and look at the era(s) they came up in. Even Edge and Christian did years of touring both in Canada and the USA before joining Titan.
The Heavys just aren’t what they used to, and extending that to Japan, we’re just now seeing some guys who look capable of delivering high-end stuff for years to come. But believe me when I say that on January 1, 2009 if you’d said the names you’ll see very soon, I’d have said “Maybe, and definitely not the way you’re describing them.”
On a similar line of thinking, how come the Mexican wrestlers aren’t being represented? So far there has only been one person from a Mexican promotion (Negro Casas – CMLL at No. 48) but I would have thought there would be more. Thoughts?
Ya, the style doesn’t do it for me. Mistico will be talked about this weekend, so we’ll leave that to that.
Negro Casas brings it in Mexico, and he brought it in Japan last fall. I was so impressed with his ability to seamlessly transition within polar-opposite styles.
I would’ve pushed for Dr. Wagner Jr. if he’d done anything that made our radar, as I’m a big fan of his for his late-90’s-to-early-00’s work in New Japan, but there wasn’t anything on our radar.
There are a couple guys who will be mentioned tomorrow who I came away from insanely impressed with their raw athletic abilities in the ring, but every single guy on this list can work a main event-level, 20 minute or more long singles match, and those guys haven’t gotten to that point yet.
E-mail Jason & ask him to tell you the Ultimo Guerrero story, and it will pretty much sum up the rest.
Unlike taymar, up above, I am all for the smaller guys more than the heavyweights. Not guys like Rey Mysterio size, but I’m for Jnr. Heavies. They tend to keep me interested in the matches more with their speed and technique.
TWD, bravo for this. I was telling JLB that this is like the final book of the Harry Potter series (or any series in fact) where part of you doesn’t want to read it because it means that it is over.
KENTA, baby! He is the man. And I had Jericho at #1 so I am glad to see him there.
Shane, you summed it up perfectly!
Not gonna lie, I already miss the late-night novella as we figured everything out.
KENTA = WIN
Ya we all had Jericho there, that one was unanimous.
I can’t say I have heard of all these Japanese guys, but you did a hell of a job with this. For Shelley, I would have added that the Guns as a whole are great for the business. Alex Shelley is the next Chris Jericho and Chris Sabin is one of the most entertaining wrestlers of this generation and one of the most athletic.
Davey Richards will be a top star in wrestling sooner or later and I’m intrigued by the new EVOLVE promotion he and Gabe Spolsky are starting. It has a great old-school feel to it and legitimacy with the Win and Lose standings.
Thanks Dan!
Trust me when I say that the second Sabin gets a singles push, or even proves that he can tell a high-end, logical story in the ring in a singles bout, he’ll get serious consideration for this.
I’m also quite intrigued about the EVOLVE group, as much for the behind-the-scenes politics that the group will be involved in, as for the in-ring product.
First I would like to commend you all on a very formidable list. I am unaware of some names outside of WWE, TNA, ROH, and NJPW but now I will be certain to check them out. My only questions on this list are the absences of Randy Orton or Triple H. I’m not being biased towards WWE, but I feel those two do deserve spots for their contributions opposed to some other WWE names you threw in there. Just wanted to hear your thoughts on those two. Besides that it was a wonderful list
stay tuned for the “TWD Future 50′ers” list, as well as they “Why they didn’t make it” list.
Also, I think you might be surprised just how strong of an argument we have as to why Orton and Triple H SHOULDNT be on this list.
I look forward to your reasoning of those two and will provide my full input after hearing your arguments. I also forgot to mention Kurt Angle as well as I think he may deserve a spot here too, but I’m sure you have him covered in your “Why they didn’t make it” list.
Once again, I look forward to it
Of all the Wrestlers who didn’t make it, the only one that really surprised me was Angle.
In terms of Triple H’s contributions, believe me when I say that we could get into a massive debate about it. I don’t have even the remotest desire to debate anything about all the H’s however, so I’ll sum it up like this:
Even forgetting all the guys he buried from 2002-2005, and even forgetting how ratings always dropped during his title reigns…
When was the last truly great Triple H singles match in which his opponent wasn’t better than him in the ring (HBK), and no gimmicks were involved?
Don’t mean for that to sound argumentative at all, just HHH wasn’t much of a sticking point for any of us.
We all appreciate how much you enjoyed the list, and I would absolutely encourage you to search out the NOAH and DG guys on here. It’s a whole new world from the one North Americans see.
Suprised @ no Orton.
Nice work!
Don’t be, the E hasn’t unleashed the Viper yet. When they do, he’ll be here.
There’s a few glaring omissions from this list that aren’t even mentioned in the other article that I was quite honestly surprised not to see. What happened to Blue Demon, Jr.??? He’s been the NWA World Heavyweight Champion for over a year!
Others include:
- Adam Pierce
- Brent Albright
- Dos Caras, Jr.
- Hector Garza
- Perro Aguayo, Jr.
Scott, you sound a little like you think that kayfabe matters. A guy should be on a list because he holds a title? Not so much.
The two RoH guys may have been oversights, but with a list that had 36 people & was 3000 words deep, there were probably another 64 guys we could’ve included.
None of those Mexican guys do anything for me or Jason, and Triggs who was the LL expert never once mentioned them, and we only watched the guys he asked us to.
Now if you’d mentioned Voltador Jr. as a LL guy who I forgot, I’d say absolutely. Actually, gonna go fix that now.
Annnnnnnd fixed.
I’m just saying that a guy that’s held a major world title deserves to be looked at.
I thought this project was between everyone at TWD, not just the three of you? I understand the hard work that you put in to get the order and write up the descriptions of each wrestler, but how much weight did other people’s list have? I know that I had Blue Demon, Jr. in my 50.
(Rubs hands together) I’ll totally answer this.
Of the 14 people I asked for lists, 3 of them bothered to rank Blue Demon. Three. I asked people pf varying background and massive knowledge to participate, and three votes out of 14 is not really enough to convince me to rank him.
Aside from that, name me a great match that Blue Demon Jr. has had this year….one that you’ve actually watched.
And did you say that the NWA World Heavyweight Title is a major world title? I would agree with you if you said historically speaking, or it was at one time a major world title, but it’s been some time since the masses clamored to find out what happened in an NWA title match. I’m not sure how the NWA is viewed in Australia, but in the United States, the NWA is not a major promotion.
Pearce and Albright as top 100? Easy. Top 50? Make me a case, because only a handful of people voted for Albright and Pearce.
Albright is a beast, but name me five great matches he’s had this year, regardless of whether or not he lost him…and by five great matches, I mean five matches that have really impacted the promotion he had them in.
The same can be said for guys like Garza, Caras and Aguayo, because only a small handful of people voted for them as well
Wow guys! Great job on the first edition of TWD’s 50. Really enjoyed the suspense and I was really REALLY shocked that Cena/Orton was left off. (Not that I have a problem with it. You guys know me.) I’m really glad that Chris is #1. I am hoping someone on Twitter gets it to him just to let him know that some people realize and actually care about all of the work he’s doing. There are still a lot of guys on the list I don’t know but it’s okay because I’ll be looking them up in my freetime.
*claps wildly*
Thanks T!
There’s no question that Jericho deserved to be #1. I’m a HUGE KENTA fan and he was in my 2008 MOTY and one of my Top-3 this year, and it still wasn’t a question that Jericho is The Man.
I have only had the privilege of watching nagata work once and that was against Kurt Angle on TNA’s global impact last year…and if even half his watches are that good than well he more than earned his spot
I have to wonder where Taker would have fit in this list 3 or 4 years ago….
Shawn NEEDS to get out of the DX thing….its nice and it can be fun to watch at times but I would like to see him have one more run with the heavyweight title..maybe even have a few matches with Kofi
As far as Bryan Danielson goes…but him in the ring with Shawn Michaels or Jericho…give them thirty minutes and I guarantee by the end of the night we’ll know what the match of the year is
blah matches not watches
and put not but
can’t spell today
I know. I’m sick of Vince/HHH hogging Shawn. Shawn should be feuding with guys like Swagger, Bourne, DANIELSON and making them superstars instead of feeding HHH’s ego and selling Vince merchandise. That’s what CENA is for.
I can safely say that Nagata has no problem putting up that kind of match, and the match you reference (1/4/08) was a little of Nagata carrying Angle, not gonna lie. It was that match that made me accept that Angle was done on an elite level, as Nagata took him where that match needed to go.
I don’t know if ‘Taker would’ve been higher on this list a few years ago. He got a lot of “points” for the W/M classic w/HBK.
AGREED! And Kofi vs HBK with 20 minutes to work would be nice, wouldn’t it.
Ya again 100% agreed. Even with whatever “fat-cutting” the WWE does to Danielson’s style, he & either of Jericho or HBK would have no problem having an MOTY (assuming Shawn’s knees are okay now).
(OH MY GOD, THAT’S… THAT’S KEITH ENSMINGER’S MUSIC!!)
Gentlemen,
As a former writer on “this. very. site”, I’ve been reading this list with much interest. Clearly I can appreciate the amount of work and the time that you’ve put in on creating it.
But, I’m here to call shenanigans on this list.
I’m going to call out the elephant in the room — there is a clear anti-WWE sentiment present in these rankings and on who made/didn’t make the list. Yes, I know, I know, “I should broaden my horizons to see what else is out there.” Yeah, I get that.
Fact: WWE, whether you like the style or not, is the #1 wrestling promotion in the world in ratings, tickets sold, buy rates, merchandise, etc. Basically, all bias and opinions aside, any measurable criteria you could possibly throw at me puts WWE at #1 in the world.
Keeping that in mind, and using your own criteria, I find it sheer lunacy that wrestlers such as HHH and John Cena were left off of this list. Let’s review your very own criteria using HHH:
* Overall value to current promotion in terms of quality and quantity of ring work.
I’d have to say being the heir to the throne of the #1 wrestling promotion puts him in a pretty big spot here, right? When HHH is off Raw (the #1 most watched wrestling show in the world, please try to keep that in mind…), it’s very noticeable. High marks for HHH here.
* Career contributions to the pro wrestling world, including pioneering and “trailblazing†work as well as training and introducing young performers to the business
He’s the most likely to break Ric Flair’s record for most world titles, so, again, I’d say he gets pretty big marks here. He brought back HBK from retirement. He made Batista. He made Orton. He’s still helping to develop young guys like Sheamus. As far as trailblazing — I think being an integral part of the stuff that made the Attitude Era kind of qualifies him. High marks here again.
* Versatility in terms of persona and in-ring style
HHH can switch from funny to intense in the span of a single promo. He’s marketable as a singles wrestler, in a tag team, and in a stable. High marks here.
* Success in multiple promotions (where applicable, as this may not be a factor for younger talent)
I find this criteria extremely questionable. Why would anyone in the #1 promotion in the world want to be in another promotion? I read the follow-up as to why certain wrestlers weren’t ranked. You said DiBiase and Rhodes weren’t ranked because they haven’t spent enough time in the indy’s. Really? Why would they? Why should they? I’m not saying they should be ranked in the top 50, but saying they shouldn’t be ranked because they didn’t spend time in little indy promotions is like saying LeBron James isn’t good because he never played college basketball.
* Drawing ability / fan popularity
I’ll be brief — “yes” Moving on.
* The ability to tell a story in the ring
Watch the Hell in a Cell PPV for all you need to know about this. HHH and HBK told a wonderful story in their match against Rhodes/DiBiase.
* Consistency
He’s probably main evented 75% of the most watched PPVs over the past ten years. I’d say that qualifies him for consistent, yes?
* Work ethic
Remember when everyone joked that HHH never would be on Smackdown because he doesn’t want to work Tuesdays? Then, strange thing happened — he did! He carried the blue brand for months and helped make Jeff Hardy into a superstar. He (and Cena) are the ultimate company men and work tirelessly promoting the company. High marks here.
* Ability to connect to the audience and get them to react in a desired way
He can make you laugh, he can make you stand and cheer, he drops subtle inside jokes. Yes, it’s the same old HHH entrance and same old DX “ARE YOU READY?” promo, but IT WORKS… and it has for YEARS. He holds the audience in the palm of his hands when he holds a mic.
Again, those were you own criteria, were they not? I’d put HHH up against any single wrestler on your list, and I think head-to-head he’d come out on top on the majority of categories. As I said, I’d be fine for HHH not to be number one, or top five, or wherever. But, to not put him, or other similiar WWE wrestlers, on the list AT ALL? I just find that very hard to swallow, and greatly reduces my respect for this list. Don’t give me “the WWE marketing machine” or “I have North American bias”, please seriously explain how I’m wrong about anything I just wrote.
Please also keep in mind that I’m using ALL of your criteria, not certain criteria for and certain criteria against others. What do I mean? For example, you say that Shawn Michaels has had an amazing career, and one amazing match this year, but he’s had a down year. However, in a very nearby ranking, you give another wrestler high marks for a series of matches from 2002, 2003, and 2007. So, we’re to give more points to certain wrestler’s pasts than others? And, again, please don’t say well, I’m just biased. You yourself in your comments say that “the Mexican style just isn’t my thing.” Well, that’s fine, but that sure doesn’t make this an objective criteria-based list as advertised, does it?
Again guys, I know how hard all of you work behind the scenes here, and I don’t want to take anything away from that. I’m just calling it like I see it — in many, many ways, this list is very biased against WWE wrestlers.
Until next time, may all your breaks be clean ones.
HHH sucks thank god he was left off the list…..now im interested why angle was left off the list
Yes Jason, yes.
Check my Future 50′ers and Honourable Mentions, Angle’s definitely in there.
Whatever your theme music is, Alexisonfire PWNS it.
You’re right about one thing Keith, and it may be the only thing you were right about in your entire rant-disguised-as-knowledgable-speak: there is a clear anti___ sentiment in these rankings. And you know what that sentiment is?
Cookie-cutter wrestling.
Guess who are the masters of it? Ya, the guys who produce tv every week, PPV’s every month, and who hold back their best wrestlers from doing what they are capable of doing almost all the time.
Let’s be honest here, a Meltzer-rated **** WWE match would be ***¼-***½ in Japan. Know why? Of course you don’t, you shoot on me for not liking Mexico but you don’t even know Japan, so I’ll explain it. The standards for Japan are higher, because those guys are allowed to do their thang, if you weeeeell.
Did the criteria for this say “The company that sells the most blah blah blah will have the most wrestlers?†No. Though it probably should have said “The company that is too uppity to admit that they’re a wrestling product won’t have as many people on it as WWE-centric fans would like.â€
Were we ranking companies here? Because if we were, I missed the memo – for three months. No, we were ranking wrestlers on myriad criteria.
Did you actually make a case for John Cena? I love the guy’s effort and will go to the wall to defend him as a good wrestler. But shit Ken, this is The 50 we’re talking about, the TWD 50, and good don’t cut it…unless it’s a cookie.
Cena is the most formulaic wrestler since the guy his booking has been patterned after, Hulk Hogan. Atsushi Aoki is 50 lbs. lighter than Cena and would chain-wrestle him into the ground in max 45 seconds. Don’t come to a gun fight with a Super Soaker man.
And honestly, what value has HHH shown this year? He stunk up the WrestleMania main event, he hasn’t had one great match (that wasn’t saddled with gimmicks), and the only people who are enjoying the DX reunion are teens and people who turn their brains off to enjoy the idiocy that is Monday Night RAW. His name far outweighs his output at this point, to the point where I dread watching him wrestle a straight-up singles match.
You know what else is noticeable? That the ratings don’t come back after HHH returns from absenses.
The World Titles argument? Really? Did you not see the “NO KAYFABE†disclaimer in those same rules you’re trying to use against us? Perhaps less time on the soapbox, and more in learning about what you’re trying to tear down, kthx.
Oh my gosh Ken, MICK FOLEY MADE ORTON. Backlash 2004, lest you forget.
Is HHH versatile? Sure. But if we valued that more than his in-ring ability…well we don’t.
You find the “Success in multiple promotions†aspect “questionable†because you haven’t “expanded your horizons,†if I may paraphrase from, well, you. And since you haven’t, I’ll let you in on a little secret there Ken. In Japan, guys rarely jump promotions, And when they do, the home base’s fans don’t exactly take to them right away because they’re not home-grown, and aren’t seen as worthy. They then spend months trying to prove themselves, and whether or not they’re being jobbed, the Japanese fans can tell if they’re talented or not. If they are (See: Collection AT, Milano), they get over.
You should probably get over your WWE-centricness if you’re ever going to understand a Worldwide ranking.
Did I say that Dibiase & Rhodes didn’t get ranked b/c they hadn’t spent enough time on the Indys? No, but hey, way to twist words around to try to make a point that’s just…not…there. My gosh Ken, try reading something with an open mind instead of an agenda, it’ll get you farther and save both of us time. Oh & the Lebron tie-in was so laughable that I actually laughed.
“Watch the Hell in a Cell PPV for all you need to know about this. HHH and HBK told a wonderful story in their match against Rhodes/DiBiase. “
That’s great. It’s called a gimmick. Myself and an aardvark could tell a captivating story in a Cell, simply b/c I’m not a pro & I’m wrestling an aardvark…IN A CELL. Tell a story in a singles’ match and I’ll push for you. Oh wait, Orton and HHH had that shot at WrestleMania, and unlike ‘Taker & HBK, they blew it hard.
I could give 3 rat’s asses that a guy has main evented 75% of a company’s shows. You realize that this is the same guy that every fan who is at all knowledgeable about wrestling is screaming at Vince to pull him out of the mains, right? He’s booking those b/c of his name and b/c Vince doesn’t know how to elevate talent not named Cena so he keeps going to the well. Take a look at the plummeting PPV buys Ken, and the fact that the WWE dropped 2 PPV’s off their 2010 list, and you tell me how Mr. Main Events 75% Of All The PPV’s is doing. He sure is consistent alright.
Are you ready to admit that you’re just a mark for The
Gameaaaahh yet?
Ya, I remember that joke. Hey, do you remember that joke when the WWE signed SmackDown! to be broadcast on My Network TV b/c no one else would give them a decent deal? And do you remember when the E put HHH, Jeff Hardy, and JR (the voice of WWE) on SmackDown! to develop a legit fanbase? The unknowledgeable marks followed Hardy & Hunter over, and the fanbase was started. Do you know who legitimized it? Hardy, Rey Mysterio (#23), The Undertaker (#12), Edge (#22), CM Punk (#17), oh, and jeez who was that last guy?
Oh yeah, Chris Jericho. What’s he ranked again?
That’s how SmackDown! got legitimized, on a station that runs 99% syndicated shows and infomercials, and SmackDown!.
Ability to connect with the audience, with the same thing he’s been saying on & off for 11 years? Jeez Ken, if “Road Dogg Jesse James†walked down to the ring & cut his old promo entrance, everyone who remembered it would say it, and within 2 weeks entire crowds would be saying it. It’s cheap heat – it’s a catchphrase, a built-in crowd-popper. Say something real, because I’m not gonna give you marks for telling 12,000 people to “Suck itâ€.
I already explained HBK’s ranking earlier (WM before you try to say I didn’t), so I’ll move on. You know why “the Mexican style just isn’t my thing� Because “High-spot, rest hold, high-spot, rest-hold, into high-spot, 45 seconds of nothing, nearfall, high-spot, 45 more seconds of nothing, nearfall†is so pointless and boring that I’d rather watch a Blue Demon Jr. match. And every guy that works that style is penalized for it. Negro Casas got huge marks from Jason and I for his work in Japan in 2008, his ability as a 30 year vet to seamlessly go from the LL style to New Japan’s Strong Style. That’s talent – not every wrestler could do that. And if Dr. Wagner Jr. had done anything of note this year, I’d have pushed hard for him too.
I realize you think it’s fine to call us out on all of this because you’re not around anymore, and because you qualify it by saying “I know how hard all of you work behind the scenes here, and I don’t want to take anything away from that…†but that don’t fly with me. And rest assured, though I may be typing it, this message isn’t from me alone.
We worked miles beyond hard for three months on the TWD 50. I never thought I’d be watching Turkish wrestling, but there I was watching “The Turkish Suplex Machine,†and I gotta tell you Ken, Murat Bosporus could make a great heel in the WWE. But HHH, if you strip away the gimmick and the name, and you put the worker in other countries, he doesn’t get over. He’s not one of the 150 best wrestlers in the world, let alone The 50.
You said that you should broaden your horizons Ken, and frankly, I thank you for saving me the trouble.
What can I say, I like Ken better.
if i ever piss u off mr cranwell please tell me so i can rectify it……u pretty much just spoke the gospel about HHH THANK YOU!!!!…..and can u get me some links for the amazing jr heavyweight matches u guys keep speaking about u have me very interested
*Sighs* I’ll add to Cranwell’s thoughts….
“there is a clear anti-WWE sentiment present in these rankings”
Promotions represented on the TWD 50
World Wrestling Entertainment: 10
Dragon Gate Wrestling: 8
New Japan Pro Wrestling: 6
Total Non Stop Action Wrestling: 5
I’m sorry, but are you telling me there’s an anti WWE sentiment to a list where the WWE is the most represented promotion on it, particularly when all of those 10 are in the top 40? From this list, you could infer that the WWE IS the best promotion in the world. So what exactly is your argument?
“and on who made/didn’t make the list.”
Oh…that’s what you really meant Ken. You meant to say that you don’t “respect” the list because Cena and Triple H weren’t on it. Ok….funny thing here…is that I actually RESPECT your opinion. In fact I respect a lot of opinions, regardless of what SOME would say, right Ken?
“Fact: WWE, whether you like the style or not, is the #1 wrestling promotion in the world in ratings, tickets sold, buy rates, merchandise, etc”
Yeah…that must be why they call it sports entertainment, because they are a wrestling promotion. But hey…if you want to call Chavo putting over a leprechaun every week the number one wrestling promotion, to each their own, because that’s your opinion and I respect that….unlike you, who sad the following…
“I just find that very hard to swallow, and greatly reduces my respect for this list. Don’t give me “the WWE marketing machine†or “I have North American biasâ€, please seriously explain how I’m wrong about anything I just wrote.”
Why should I respect your opinion if you don’t respect mine? You aren’t here to have an argument…you’re here to show people how awesome you are. If you were here to have an argument, you wouldn’t have to mask your telling me that you cant respect this list with dozens of qualifiers telling me that you know we worked hard on it….but I guess that makes our research pointless because the WWE is obviously number 1 and any effort to go watch something else is just STUPID because nothing could possibly be better, cooler, or more watchable.
I call shenanigans on that.
I also call shenanigans on asking me to prove you wrong after telling me that you basically dont respect my opinion or work. Yes I worked hard…but you immediately erase that when you say you dont respect the product of that effort. So thank you for nothing.
You can have your opinion and I’m not stopping you from having it, and even though you don’t respect mine, I respect yours. All of this is despite of the fact that its ok for you to point out that you think we are biased…but then you say…
“Don’t give me “the WWE marketing machine†or “I have North American bias—
So i can’t point out that you are biased? Right….
As for proving you wrong….eh…I’ve made 50 cases….and you dont have to agree with em and you can argue them all you want, but I dont see any damn reason not to respect it. just because Triple H and John Cena weren’t on it. God forbid we leave them out of a discussion on something. God forbid we point out Triple H laid a DUD at Wrestlemania with Orton. Given the level of hype that match had, it should have been the best match on the night. Hey guess what….it wasn’t.
Taker and Shawn Michaels did more that night to make sure future pay days were coming for EVERYONE than Triple H and Orton did. Take that HBK-Taker match off that card….Wrestlemania 25 was awful….take the Orton-Triple H match off the show…you still have the greatness of the Taker-HBK match to throw the hate of Mania on…and could make a case it was an average show overall.
As for Cena, that man cant even control how his audience reacts. He polarizes half the crowds he wrestlers in front of, unlike Edge and Jericho, who are ranked highly…they can get a crowd to do whatever the hell they damn want at anytime. Cena accepts middle ground and goes from there…Jericho and Edge shoot for the whole damn audience.
“I find this criteria extremely questionable. Why would anyone in the #1 promotion in the world want to be in another promotion?”
Ask Bruno Sammartino. Ask Brian Kendrick. Ask Kurt Angle. Ask Christian when he left the first time. Ask Jeff Hardy. Ask Booker T. Ask Davey Richards. Ask Chris Hero. Ask A.J. Styles. In fact, ask anyone who has ever turned down a contract extension or a contract offer in the history of the company. Under that logic, no one would ever voluntarily leave or ever indicate that they want to leave…all of the above left for one reason or the other or have indicated that they don’t or didn’t like working there and have no interest in working there. Hmmm…
“He’s probably main evented 75% of the most watched PPVs over the past ten years. I’d say that qualifies him for consistent, yes”
What the hell does that have to do with the actual quality of the main event or the main events ability to draw repeat or future business? he could have main evented 100 percent of the main events over the past ten years for all I care…did he actually do something with it? Or was he busy using the WWE for his own personal play ground and stupid jokes?
“You said DiBiase and Rhodes weren’t ranked because they haven’t spent enough time in the indy’s”
What the hell are you talking about? This is what was said:
“4. Cody Rhodes
5. Ted DiBiase Jr. – The only thing that the charter members of Legacy are missing is a few years on the Indys. So now that we have that out of the way, let’s recap what they have:
• Pedigree
• Being developed in WWE Developmental
• Working with WWE main eventers from their first nights on the job.
They will learn the WWE main event style, and they will be able to meld in their athleticism into that style, and it will be very nice.
Whenever either Rhodes or DiBiase get the chance to show their stuff, they look great. A few months ago I thought Ted Jr. was the better prospect, but recently Cody has shown vs DX that he’s every bit as good. These guys are key parts of the future of the E’s main event future, and believe me, it’s a bright one.”
Mmmmkkay. He doesn’t say that’s why they aren’t ranked. Seriously, did you read it all the way through? He merely says they’re missing years on the indies. He doesn’t hand that down as the SOLE AND ONLY explanation. Seriously now.
“HHH can switch from funny to intense in the span of a single promo.”
GRARARARAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!! WOOOOOOOOO!!!!! YOU”RE DOOMED!!!!I’M THE GAAAAAAME! (Breaths and snorts angrily and spits water) And when you’re finished being doomed, don’t forget to head to WWE.com to buy my merchandise! See….I can do it too….it’s really not that hard.
“* Overall value to current promotion in terms of quality and quantity of ring work.
I’d have to say being the heir to the throne of the #1 wrestling promotion puts him in a pretty big spot here, right?”
……..I think you misunderstood what I said. I didn’t say value in terms of backstage politics and ability to put yourself in a position to be the heir of the throne….i said quality and quantity of RING WORK, meaning in the ring as in a wrestling match, or as it is called in the WWE….ENTERTAINMENT.
“When HHH is off Raw (the #1 most watched wrestling show in the world, please try to keep that in mind…), it’s very noticeable.”
Cah…my word…I say…I haven’t seen Triple H on the show and I’ve noticed it? Have you noticed it too?
Why yes I have my good boy, I have noticed that Triple H isn’t on the show. I quite noticed he was absent.
I’ve got news for you man….when Triple H wasn’t on the show….it was still the most watched wrestling show in the world, so what the hell is your point? Do people tune in when he’s not there just to notice that Triple H is not there?
“Career contributions to the pro wrestling world, including pioneering and “trailblazing†work as well as training and introducing young performers to the business
He’s the most likely to break Ric Flair’s record for most world titles, so, again, I’d say he gets pretty big marks here. ”
So what? That’s a contribution to his own legacy, not the business. You don’t need to win 20 titles to contribute to the business.
“He brought back HBK from retirement.”
That’s funny…I could swear that HBK did all of that physical labor and work himself. It’s one thing to ask someone to come back…but all he did was convince him to come back. The work Michaels did after that has NOTHING to do with Triple H….the great work that Michaels does is Michaels doing.
“He made Batista.”
And what a GREAT help that’s been. Thanks for the often injured main eventer Trips.
“He made Orton”
That was Bob Orton Jr. and Mrs. Orton first of all….second of all, if CHRIS FRICKIN BENOIT hadn’t agreed to drop the belt to Orton to make him the youngest champion in history to facilitate the Orton face turn so that Triple H could promptly bury him to win another title, NONE OF THIS would have happened in the first place. I’ve got news for you…the fans shat on that face turn…it wasn’t until Orton became a LEGEND KILLER that he started really getting over, and it wasn’t until he booted VINCE MCMAHON in the skull that he really was treated as a legit champ. Remember WM 24, when Orton was voted by like…3 percent to be the winner in a triple threat match featuring Triple H and Cena….yeah….he still wasn’t MADE at that point.
“I think being an integral part of the stuff that made the Attitude Era kind of qualifies him.”
And WHAT YEAR did THAT HAPPEN? It sure as hell wasn’t 2009.
Done….
“He made Batista.â€
And what a GREAT help that’s been. Thanks for the often injured main eventer Trips.
ROFL That is all. I’ve had a terrible night but to log in, post my preview then read this? Oh man, this just made my whole day. Bwahahahaha
Oh and I’m not really getting into the argument because quite frankly I could care less if Trips is on the list or not. I am convinced that he’s hogging HBK from the rest of the fans. Dammit I want my HBK back! *end rant* Anyway I realize the things HHH has done for the business and I realize his popularity but let me point this out.
-HBK brought Kevin Nash to the WWE. Kevin Nash became a star by association/politics via HBK.
-HHH got in with The Kliq. HBK led the Kliq. HHH shared the spotlight with HBK thus gaining recognition and popularity. HBK got injured. HHH took over DX which was founded by HBK.
-HHH kept Chyna as a “manager”.
-HHH “married” SMH.
-HHH formed Evolution.
-HHH kept Flair as a “manager”.
-HHH worked closely with the McMahons who were screwing over HBK.
-HHH brought back DX… x2. :/
HHH is rarely “alone”. My little brother was watching my HHH King of Kings DVD and asked, “Has HHH ever been alone? Has he EVER gained popularity all by himself? Can he stand alone?”
Interesting… I know he went through a few brief periods where he was all by himself but when you really think about it, it’s like he always has someone by his side…
Not necessarily saying HHH can’t stand on his own because he can. He was a pretty good wrestler when he first started wrestling but by no means did he become this popular on his own. That is to say, his wrestling/storytelling skills didn’t earn him popularity and name recognition. He got THAT by association. Prove me wrong.
And before you even begin to mention his HITC against Foley or his match against Cena at Mania 22, Foley has always been a good storyteller and Cena sucks so much that he could hardly make HHH look bad in a match. SummerSlam 2009…It’s hard to have a bad match when HBK is your partner and if I recall correctly, HHH spent half of his time out of the ring anyway.
HHH is pretty good in the ring but like Jason pointed out, he bombed big time at Mania 25. If he was really “that damn good”, he and Orton would have been able to at least tie with two 40 year olds for best match on the card.
T! Did you not even read mine? Frig. HAHA
Hey Keith! Thanks for finally posting an “article” to TWD. It’s been a while. Thankfully, it was a “clean break” for all involved, wasn’t it?
We gave you a forum to express your views.
You didn’t.
We gave you a chance to participate in this list so you could have a say in how this list worked out.
You didn’t.
Fuck off.
shenanigans on this list? elephant in the room? Seriously, when encompassing wrestling from all over the world, how many would you like to be from the WWE? 40 or 50? Currently 20% of the top 50 are from there. That’s plenty. Instead of being cookie cutter and homogenized (kind of like most top 50 lists are), the list is thought provoking, intelligent and well researched.
If only all sports journalists could do this stuff as well as TWD!
World Wrestling Entertainment: 10
Dragon Gate Wrestling: 8
New Japan Pro Wrestling: 6
Total Non Stop Action Wrestling: 5
Pro Wrestling NOAH: 5
Ring of Honor: 4
All Japan Pro Wrestling: 3
Kensuke Office: 2
Pro Wrestling ZERO1: 2
CMLL: 1
Hustle: 1
DDT: 1
Big Japan: 1
Freelancer: 1
I just noticed this post.
How do I become a fan of you Alex? Do you perhaps have a newsletter that I can subscribe to?
I dare say, this is why I love numbers: They prove facts, period.
I AM THE BEST IN THE WORLD AT WHAT I DO TODAY……never have the gospel been preached like jericho does….i was actually only counting up to 2 cause i was 100 percent sure y2j would be #1 for the exact reasons mr leblanc described….i was so shocked that kurt angle was left off i also did not notice that no randy orton either dont know how i feel about that ineed 2 go read the honorable mentions im sure i will get my answers……great work guys i 2 can not wait to se bryan danielson in wwe(please let him wrestle jericho someway somehow)…..and jlb man also your take on aj styles and how he is promoted(or lack thereof)in tna was just SICK
Ya, that line isn’t a work Jason, it’s 100% shoot, and we both know that Jericho knows it every time he says it.
I’m headed over to your H/M comments, I’ll have more on Orton for you momentarily.
And ya, JLB is pretty good eh?
Finally. It’s over. It was done pretty well and professionally. Great work. I’m really looking forward to the TWD20 now…if you can convince Ray that Mickie isn’t the best :p I can’t believe I just said that being the huge Mockie fan I am. I like you, Puro dude.
I meant Mickie, not Mockie, don’t kill me Ray, it was an accident.
I’m glad you liked it Juan! And don’t you worry, I’m on it! (The Mickie thing lol)
Haha. Since I voted Mickie at No. 2 in the Women’s “20″ due out soon.
Well hey now, that’s not #1! Looks like I did my job, haha.
Also…
DEY TOOK DERE JOBS!
Oh look, is that CHRIS JERICHO retweeting us?
Damn right he did! Bwahahahaha
This list is null in void cause Kurt Angle is the #1 best complete wrestler not Jericho. Who has done nothing, but looked like a weak Heel. Kurt has had multiple MOTY’s this year: Angle vs Tanahashi, Angle vs Jarrett II, Angle vs Styles and Angle vs Wolfe. Jericho wasnt even a Main eventer this year. Who has he put over? Nobody. He is a Spot monkey. Kurt Angle is even a better high flyer than Jericho. Kurt has held the TNA world title this year in a swerve as a master heel and has made the transition as a face swiftly.TWD are not wrestling fans, they are WWE biast overating Marks. All your credibilty has been flushed down the toilet for not mentioning the best wrestler in gthe world today. Kurt Angle. In WWE alone he better acolades as a 10 time Grand slam winner and Mania Legend. HBK vs Angle was way better than the cheesy stolen storyline that came with Jericho vs HBK. Kurt Angle is the best until a Danielson or another young talent can do it in the mainstream as well..
I think I am reading something that says Kurt Angle is better because you say so. There’s also something in your comment about us being too pro WWE or something. Your writing is really hard for me to decipher because I stopped taking Gibberish when I was a sophomore in high school. I found Latin to be much easier. Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur.
Not cause I say so. Look at the facts instead of blind over-rated marking. Thats fine if people like Jericho better. But NO contest Kurt Angle is the better wrestler…
Jericho’s matches were not even close to MOTY’s and most of Kurt’s were and he did it everywhere.
Jericho left twice cause his first concern was his band FOZZY and true wrestlers dont do that.
He is a certifiable spot monkey with the against the rope bull dog to lion sault which Alex Shelly’s and the same jump kick to outside the ring. He can’t even high fly that good anymore at 39.
Kurt high Flys way better. Oh and how many times has Jericho changed his finishing moves? The Breakdown and othersd.
Jericho is good. Kurt is the best. Jericho holding the IC belt is a joke.
Kurt can real fight way better with 3 years of MMA and a gold metal. Kurt has been in and out of Japan this whole year.Kurt Angle can Angle Slam the Big Show or cut down anybody down to size with his pattented ankle lock.
The Pigs will continue marking blindly and not seeing the facts..
Kurt Angle is #1 You mark blindly for Jericho even if his performace has been sub par and you know it. He used to do a finishing Move called the Break-down and others. This list is Null in Void without having ANGLE in it. It means nothing. They are WWE mark Pigs like you and whatever credibility they had should be flushed down the toilet. They are probably Angle haters, traders to the USA.
Jericho has not put over anyone and not even Lance Cade got anywhere but the crapper hanging around Jericho.
Kurt Angle put over Edge, Cena, helped with orton, brought in shelton, jay lethal, Samoa Joe, Styles, Morgan and Nigel Mcguiness.
AJ Styles does in rhythm combos and is not a spot monkey.
Jericho is a spot monkey cause he attempts the same moves every match and goes out of his way to do the same Random spots.
Face it mark, Kurt Angle is the #1 best complete wrestler and when Danielson or any other young talent does it in the mainstream as well. Then they will be the best complete wrestler like Angle is now. hands Down.
In WWE Kurt was on letterman and jay leno talk shows for WWE before anyone else.
Kurt Angle is a 10 time Grandslam winner and certified Mania Legend. IN WWE accolades alone, Kurt Angle beats Jericho.
Looks like you are blinded by truth..
Who wrote this? Was it Testa? Adam, did you write this?
Com’on now, how can we be WWE-biasED when according to the geniuses above, we’re not WWE-centric enough?
Testa, I know this was you. Only you would try to pass off Angle/Tanahashi as an MOTYC, especially when LeBlanc and I just had a great laugh about how BAD a match that was the other night.
Oh my God!
Ladies and Gentlemen, we at TWD have a very special guest! It seems as if “Ten Years Ago” has commented here!
Angle vs jarrett II, Angle vs Styles(Super-Impact), Angle vs Wolfe. these 3 matches prove are better than anything Jericho has done since he came back from his sucky band.
Kurt would stand out amongst any main eventers anywhere. He hasd better mic skills and is a better in the ring than always watching Christin Jerichos botched code- breakers that look so fake.
TWD dropped the ball for not mentioning Angle who is better than christina by far. Also, he made Christian a better wrestler..
Hey there.
I’m a long time reader, first time responder. I see by your IP addresses that you’ve used several names. Do you just have a lot of nick names? Are you one of those people with multiple personalities (i.e. women)? Or, are you just trying to give the illusion that more people than you continue to give a damn about Kurt Angle and his tired, drug ravaged body?
TWD, Im coming after you. How could you not mention the greatest wrestler of all time. Jericho is just OVER-rated. You over-commercialized Marks. TNA
Kurt Anglew is #1.
Jericho has never put over anyone and left for his band twice.
he hasnt done nothing this year, HBK at least did the Taker match.
Angle has been outstanding and is the leader of all main eventers..
NJPW to TNA. Kurt Angle is the Best complete wrestler.
TWD are Angle haters and traitors to USA. I guess PERFORMANCE MEANS NOTHING TO TWD. Kurt is #1 haha. jerichoasslics marks..
“Kurt Anglew is #1.”
Indeed.
Are you sure “Kurt Anglew” isn’t already mentioned? Maybe you should check through the list again, because “Kurt Anglew” has just GOT to be in there somewhere. I mean, who on EARTH hasn’t heard of “Kurt Anglew”? “Kurt Anglew” is my NEW favorite wrestler. Long live “Kurt Anglew!”
“TWD, Im coming after you.”
Good. I’ll enjoy the hit counts. Thanks for stopping by man with four different identities.
i think for anyone to make a list of top 50 wrestlers is a great achievement. but i really do feel it is scewed a little too much towards Japanese wrestling. Yes it is probably the strongest product right now but it does feel like North American Mainstream wrestling has really been left out. its mainstream for a reason, because majority of the people enjoy it.. i know we hate on it but it deserves some respect in my humble opinion.
I hate TNA, i really really think its incredibly week booking. I dont watch TNA that often anymore but when i do i only stick around to watch Angle. You guys have responded to all the people so far by cracking jokes or attacking them. I would be grateful and appreciative if you could explain your reasons for not picking him. He is at the very least much better that Milano Collection AT (who has had an okay year, has potential but Angle is it right now). Angle works hard and is a solid wrestler who gets people over too.
Secondly, ORTON. You know how good Orton is, my 6 year nephews hate ALL the bad guys (as kids should) but even they Love Orton (the only other Heel they like is Jericho). I really don’t think there is anyone who can play a character in a match like Randy. He is a fantastic story teller and after a dodgy start to a career is really becoming a fantastic talent. He is already really good but has potential to be even better and that is SCARY (since you guys quoted JR for Danielson this is a paraphrasing of JR about Orton). He should be here at least for the fact he made an hour long match against Cena actually very watchable.
I am not a Hardy Mark, actually i popped hard when Punk beat him BUT you have to admit (except for the arrest) the boys had an incredible year. His matches with Punk have been really really good. I don’t like him but do think (objectively) speaking that he should’ve been in the list).
KUDOS on Jericho. It just couldn’t be anyone else. Those who criticise him do it because he spends so much time getting people over and does it SO well that people don’t even think he’s doing anything. And he actually has made Big Show WATCHABLE which is incredible.
i don’t want to be a hater. I would like to know your reasons for discluding the above 3.
Taymur, you know what the difference is between you and the other two guys who challenged this list? You at least did it respectfully, ergo, I’m going to respectfully answer your questions. That’s how it works with me. You come in here and say that we’re a second rate site and that you don’t respect us….that’s unnecessary considering that ALL lists are ojbective. Every single one of them. We have no problem with debate.
There was an honorable mentions article…so I’m going to refer to that for the response:
First…Kurt Angle….
One…his match with Tanahashi earlier this year in February was nice….but I liked it better when he had about the same match with Eddie Guerrero nine years ago, sans the boot loosening.
Two…Angle has been using the same moveset for quite some time.
Three…who has he really put over this year, particuarly in TNA, wherever World Titles mostly change hands in 5 or 6 man matches?
Angle was the head of a Main Event Mafia gimmick that accomplished nothing in terms of putting anyone over, and it has put Samoa Joe’s career in some serious limbo.
Other thoughts on Angle from Cranwell…
“When Angle quit the WWE a few years back, I traded e-mails with Dave Hawk, Angle’s agent. The jist of it went as follows:
MC: Honestly, I don’t care if he ever wrestles again, so long as he gets his real life back together. He has a family to worry about that means infinitely more than getting back into the ring.
DH: Don’t you worry about Kurt, he’ll be back and better than ever!
MC: Ya…good to see that you care.
I couldn’t have been less impressed. And in the years that have followed, Kurt’s marriage has become yet another victim of the perils of the pro wrestling industry. Last year, he almost got paralyzed at the hands of some fat ass Korean goof who couldn’t even bodyslam a 220 lbs. wrestler who practically jumped up into his hands. And as he continues to get banged up (Dixie Carter even said that Kurt blew his back out at the beginning of the Angle-Wolfe match at Turning Point last Sunday), his inadequacies in the ring have been badly exposed. Kurt’s storytelling jumps badly from opening minute action-type sequences, straight into tense, final minute sequences, without the build-up. He’s been like that for years, but it’s been really pronounced in TNA, where he obviously has more say over his work than he ever did in the WWE.
That’s as much as I’ll be talking about him in terms of his wrestling. When Jason asked me why I hadn’t mentioned him, and why his name hadn’t come up between Triggs, LeBlanc, and myself, I basically said the following:
“I could give a rat’s ass about Kurt Angle the wrestler, because Kurt Angle the human being is flushing himself down the drain. When multiple wrestlers in your own company are questioning whether or not you have certain…issues that may need to be addressed, and when people are saying that you’re the odds-on-favourite to be the next great wrestling tragedy, I humbly suggest that you have more important things to be worrying about than wrestling. So I refuse to even acknowledge him as an option for the TWD 50.â€
Make all the soapbox cracks you want Angle fans, there is more to life than trying to be “The Greatest Wrestler Ever†– which by the way let’s face facts, that ship sailed years ago.
Maybe one day, Angle will realize that there’s more to life than competition. I just hope it’s in time to be able to play with his grandchildren.”
Now Orton….
Orton was one half of the dissapointing Wrestlemania 25 main event. Orton’s hasn’t been enough of an allegedly awesome specimen to even warrant the WWE letting him keep the belt for any extended length of time.
His promo skills are vastly overrated. They are decent at best, but 20 years from now, no one is going to look back and think of his awesome promos.
Orton’s matches are routinely not as good as hoped. The best match I’ve seen him have in the past few years? A match he had in defending the title against Shawn Michaels, but hey…that’s Shawn Michaels.
Orton is going to be watched closely with Kofi Kingston. Many are going to say Orton MADE Kofi…but Kofi was over before hand….he just needed a character of some sort. His charisma was connecting with the audience…it wasn’t Orton making him in the same way that Flair made Sting.
You’re right though…Orton is good and has POTENTIAL to be great….Orton is easily in the top 100…IN THE WORLD. I’m sorry but being top 100 in the world is really good. Is it elite? When Orton starts meeting expectations with his matches, then we can have that talk, because in wrestling it is all about delivering.
That being said, his segments with Kofi on RAW have been great…but let’s see if that match lives up to the massive expectations it will have by the time it happens, and by that, I mean the one on one match, not the Survivor Series match.
There are a lot of people who flat out didn’t like the Iron Man Match, including the ridiculous pyro spots and the insulting psychology of Orton tapping out seconds before it would have been declared a draw. Part of it may be booking, but at one point do you raise your hand and say “hey…this ending is stupid?” Now if Orton tapped out after being in the old for two minutes with like…3 minutes left….that would make sense because then they could have Orton get frantic and try to desperately beat Cena to tie him and then come up with another ending that has Orton come up short and has him look STRONG….instead they made him look like a moron. The question here…is why would they do that when they go out of there way to make their stars look awesome? Hmmmm….
Jeff Hardy: It is a requirement to be in the business….ergo….he’s not on this list. This list doesn’t wait around to see if you’ll come back. Aside from which, people carry him to great matches, his promo skills are awful, he’s a horrible actor, the guys that do work with him have to bust their asses to make him look good and his offense makes sense. Jeff shows no ability to get over with anything other that his high flying stunts. Hardy could make some changes so that he isn’t tearing up his body and can stick around longer than a few years at a time, but he hasn’t because that’s his bread and butter. That’s what the fans cheer for. Great talents find ways to make people cheer or boo them regardless of what they do.
Take a look at John Cena for example. He can’t even control how a crowd reacts to him. He had his rapper gimmick and at first he was a heel, but then the fans started liking it….but notice his act never really changed. He was still making insulting raps toward opponents, the only things that changed were that he started rapping about heels instead of faces. There was nothing Cena did that actively made the fans do anything.
The same dynamic happens now. Cena’s audience is often polarized. Half will boo….half will cheer. Jericho and Edge can get the crowd to do whatever they want, whenever they want to do it. Cena hasn’t turned heel because he’s never shown that he knows how to control a crowd and make them do what he wants them to do. Some will say the ECW crowd hated him…but come on…..that was an ECW crowd that was OBVIOUSLY going to hate his guts. He didn’t have to do a damn thing, and he could have saved a woman’s live in the middle of the ring and given her CPR and he still wouldn’t have been cheered.
I hope that answers your question my friend….thanks for commenting and reading.
yeah and cena looked legitly stunned they hated him that much no kayfabe…..he did roll with it i liked the shirt throwing
What choice did he have? lol. That’s just common sense…not talent.
The fact that Kota Ibushi, a man who can deliver truly amazing matches from the most talented of individuals to a blow up doll (which already speaks volumes), is loyal to the company that gave him the opportunity to shine in the long run is a testament to the flowing amounts of respect he has, and DDT is honored to have him. The day that Ibushi VS YOSHIHIKO becomes a worthy MotY (IMO) contender as compared to many stale matches in the year is the day that Ibushi has proven himself to be talented phenomenon that he is.
It’s funny to see how RoH has made a ton of impact in mysterious ways in the industry, especially this year. Punk becoming an awesome prophet heel, Joe managing to survive the MEM phase for whatever it’s worth (besides being ruthless as usual), and McGuinness being involved in what could be the best “Young VS Old” match of the year, and could even at least compete with Michaels / Taker.
Nakamura: 100% agreed that he is the best Japanese wrestler in the world right now. He can make a match with Otani a worthy encounter by all means, and has a driven work rate the likes of which aren’t seen in a lot of wrestlers these days. I’m so glad he didn’t end up in the WWE and have his talent wasted. And he’s living proof that he can be successful in both puro and MMA at the same time, though puro could now be his permanent calling.
Jericho: Best in the world in what he does. No truer words have been said. If anyone can make the Guest Host thing work, it has got to be Jericho. He made an unstable legends program work, was involved in a series of quality matches with Mysterio, helped make the tag team division mean something again, and contribute greatly in both shows. That speaks volumes.
first thank you for the sweat wordes you had said for shawn michaels i respect everyone in your list even chericho he is realy good wrestling he had great story with the show stopper last year it was the best ever and now he is champion its great but the man who made the story great last year he is SHAWN MICHAELS not chricho i respect chricho but i dont think he is the best in the world i think the only man who should to be #1 HE IS THE HEART BREAK KID THE HEADLINER THE MAIN EVERNT THE SHOW STOPPER SHAWN MICHAELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLS!
i am sorry if i say some thing wrong i not sbeak eniglish well because i am from egybt
Damn. This debate is still going? ROFL This is great. I didn’t realize Kurt Angle had so many loyal fans.
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Spammers suck dog balls. And if Bradley Hathaway approved of said spamming, he ain’t much better. Mark it.
LOL, too true.
Do wrestlers who stockpile mounds of drugs instead of wrestling get considered in the TWD 50? Guess we’ll find out in the next few days won’t we.
High flyer is as much a style as spot monkey is. The whole thing with Jeff is that he’s unique and doesn’t play by the rules blah, blah, blah.
I wouldn’t say that he necessarily has a style, but he uses a mix of wrestling types to give the fans something a little different.
His Swanton Bomb is in the same league as Bourne’s Shooting Star Press, the WITW is similar to a Moonsault onto a standing opponent, and Twist of Fate is almost a modified RKO.
The only difference is that the commentators (mostly JR) play up the fact that he’s a daredevil and has no regard for his own safety.
Some people will say that Jeff has never had a good match that wasn’t under a special stipulation, but I highly disagree.
He’s matches with Triple H over the past 2 years have been awesome, despite him not getting the upper hand on many occasions, and that’s only one example of the great work that he’s done over the years.
I also want to add that while Jeff is known for several high spots (mostly at the start of his career though), he is no more a spot monkey than Edge. Edge has been in more TLC, HIAC, and EC matches than Jeff, so why does he get off the hook?
Because Edge is more of a storyteller who only utilizes high spots in major situations. Jeff gets every spot in in every match. The story in Jeff’s matches consists of “Fast start, long beatdown, big spotty comeback, trade attempts to finish, finish.” I’ve never even thought about that until this moment, and yet that was so easy to peg. That’s why Jeff is picked on. I’m not saying he doesn’t do that stuff well, but where’s the depth? He’s an artist with a paint-by-numbers canvas.
And that’s a Jeff Hardy fan (not a mark) saying that!
Virtually every wrestler in WWE today is like that though, which is why I don’t understand why Jeff is the one that cops all of the flak.
Batista, Mysterio, Cena, Morrison, and Orton are all in the same boat, and yet none of them with the exception of Cena are pointed out as being repetitive and relying on certain moves and spots like Jeff is.
It’s starting to sound like I’m letting blind faith take over here, but I really am trying to be level headed about this.
I can understand why people don’t consider him the greatest wrestler, depending on their definition of a great wrestler, but he is by no means anywhere near the bottom of the pile.
By the way, it’s great that we’re finally having a well thought out debate on TWD
That’s because Mysterio and Morrison matches are actually different from one another. Hell…Cena matches, even though they have a habbit of ending the same way over and over again, always manage to look different in how they get to the ending.
I can’t say that with Jeff Hardy.
The best wrestlers in the world find ways to switch this up. Trademark moves aren’t ONLY used in the WWE. I’ve never understood why people seem to think that WWE is the only place in the world that have wrestlers with trademark moves.
The difference here, is that Hardy has his moves and his matches look the same everytime out. Cena, Morrison, and Mysterio have their trademark moves, and their matches DO NOT.
This isn’t me saying that Jeff is one of the worst, but he’s just not one of the elite.
I never said that signature moves were only used in WWE. I just mentioned them as an example. I know that every wrestler in the world has their own moveset that includes sig moves.
How can you say that Mysterio and Cena matches always look different? The endings are always the same, and the buildup to the final sequence is painful to watch week in and week out.
Mysterio’s matches involve some quick offense followed by an extended beatdown and then he sets up for and hist the 619. He follows that up with a West Coast Pop or body splash and the match is over. Shocking.
Cena matches on the other hand start off with some strong offense and later usually involves some back and forth punching to get the crowd involved, and again after a beatdown he “overcomes the odds” and connects with shoulder charge, shoulder charge, 5 Knuckle Shuffle, Attitude Adjuster, pin, win.
Jeff at least mixes it up by finishing with a Swanton or Twist of Fate to finish his matches.
The other thing with Jeff is that we’ve watched him grow over the last few years in regards to his moveset and storytelling ability with more facial expressions etc, whereas Cena and Mysterio have been spewing the same recycled crap for years.
Most people will say that Jeff’s promos are no good, and I agree with that, but since when does everybody have to be the greatest talker to ever walk the earth? AJ Styles and Scott Steiner have had a huge amount of success despite sounding like idiots on the mic.
“Cena matches on the other hand start off with some strong offense and later usually involves some back and forth punching to get the crowd involved, and again after a beatdown he “overcomes the odds†and connects with shoulder charge, shoulder charge, 5 Knuckle Shuffle, Attitude Adjuster, pin, win.”
The Iron Man Match didn’t follow that formula. Cena is also a hell of a lot better of a storyteller than Hardy is (even if the story is repetitive). As goofy as Cena’s promos are, I’d rather watch those than Jeff Hardy’s. I would venture to say that Jeff Hardy wouldn’t be able to pull off a 60 minute iron match without at least 2 to 3 major highspots that allowed for significant rest time to fill in the gaps for his lack of wrestling acumen.
Cena switches it up with the Adjuster and STFU, so the Swanton-Twist of Fate argument doesn’t really work there. It definitely doesn’t work for Mysterio, who i’ve seen win matches in a variety of fashions this year, not just one move.
Mysterio, with a mask covering his face, plays a better face in perril than Jeff “my spirit knows I can fly” Hardy.
But you are talking about the way WWE does things. This is there template for a face-heel match. If Mysterio, Cena, and Hardy all went to TNA, or any other indy promotion and were allowed to do whatever they wanted, I guarantee you that Cena and Mysterio would prove to be better wrestlers than Hardy, and hey, Hardy was in TNA, and his game didn’t change there either. He relied on spots there as well.
I get it…people respect Hardy for putting his body on the line…but if Hardy never did any of the crazy things he’s done in the past, would you honestly care about him? You might, but you know what you get when you take away Jeff Hardy’s crazy stunts and add some wrestling skill? Matt Hardy, who I’m sad to say is the lesser of two draws.
Mysterio was forced to adapt his style a bit after years of high flying and lucha style wrestling did damage to his knees, knees that a normal person couldn’t walk on. Mysterio hasn’t walked away from the business twice, and his career will prove to have more longevity than Jeff Hardy because he made those adjustments. If Mysterio didn’t make those adjustments, he’d either already be retired or in a wheelchair.
Until Jeff learns to make those changes, and people just continue to cheer for him for the reason they cheer for him, he will continue to return for 3 years and then burn out. Mysterio learned how to make people wait for his show. Other talents flat out have to carry Jeff to a great match…there’s a reason why most can’t name one guy who Jeff carried to a great match. It’s always been Triple H, C.M. Punk, Edge, etc…who have all worked with Hardy to make sure he gets in his trademark spots that fans love in a logical looking fashion.
There’s a reason Jeff Hardy isn’t working with young, up and coming talent in the WWE, because Vince can’t protect him there, but he can in the main event, and all Jeff has to do is jump off of stuff and the people will love it.
Your argument is flawed because you claim that Jeff is a spot monkey and yet you provide Cena’s Iron Man match as an example of Cena’s ability to have a different type of match.
That Iron Man match had those high spots that you talk about anyway. After Cena was thrown through the electrical display he was seemingly unconscious for minutes. Then there was the other spot with the fireworks, so you’re point about needing big spots to draw out the match is void here.
Hardy’s now been pegged as only good for the high spots which is what happened when he went to TNA.
Jeff himself has said this on numerous occasions, but if you compare the things he was doing in 2000 to what he does today, you can see a clear difference. He has toned down his moveset and made that change in favour of longevity.
Jeff doesn’t work with the younger talent? How about in the past when he’s teamed with and against London & Kendrick including the 4 way ladder match at Armageddon 2006? Or even last year leading into the first scramble match when he was again working with Kendrick AND putting on good matches?
“He has toned down his moveset and made that change in favour of longevity.”
So why is he not wrestling right now?
“Jeff doesn’t work with the younger talent? How about in the past when he’s teamed with and against London & Kendrick including the 4 way ladder match at Armageddon 2006? Or even last year leading into the first scramble match when he was again working with Kendrick AND putting on good matches?”
Are you kidding me? London and Kendrick? You mean the two guys who NO LONGER WORK FOR WWE? Jeff didn’t carry them to a great match. London and Kendrick are talents that are capable of carrying others to good matches, but they aren’t reliable because their heads aren’t screwed on much straighter than Jeff’s is. The WWE never had any real intention of getting Kendrick over and making him a star. If they did, I guarantee you he wouldn’t be working be Jeff Hardy…he’d be working with Triple H, who made fun of Kendrick and buried him in a promo right before that scramble match.
4 way match? So there are others there to cover up Jeff’s flaws? Yeah…
The point about Jeff needing big spots is not void, because you still haven’t told me yet how it is that Jeff is above needing big spots to get by. John Cena didn’t need fire works to get over and he didn’t get over in the first place with big spots. The WWE just decided to do that. That’s their own stupid booking.
You named me London and Kendrick as an example of the young talents he’s worked with. Again…one isn’t really consistently wrestling right now and is out of the WWE, and the other never really got over as a heel as a result of working with Hardy. But you know who was elevated after that match to even higher heights? Hey…Jeff Hardy, and both have well documented drug related pasts…yet somehow Hardy was favored over the other.
“but if you compare the things he was doing in 2000 to what he does today, you can see a clear difference.”
Let me see….ladder related spots in 2000….ladder related spots in 2009. Check.
Moves in 2000: Twist of fate, whisper in the wind, Swanton bomb the double legged groin smash, mule kick, sitout jawbreaker, pointing at head with a gun like hand symbol, and was notorious for high spots.
Moves in 2009: Twist of fate, whisper in the wind, Swanton bomb, the double legged groin smash, mule kick, sitout jawbreaker, pointing at head with a gun like hand symbol, painted face, Hardyac arrest, and he’s still notorious for crazy high spots…in fact…it’s what WWE promotes about him and has been promoting about him since 2000, when he started making a name for himself in TLC matches. One of his last matches? Hey…TLC match. Where’s this clear difference you are talking about?
You have to remember that although the match at Armageddon 06 included 4 teams, one of the other teams not mentioned was Joey Mercury and his tag team partner Johnny Nitro, with whom Jeff had a great rivalry against.
Yes it included special stipulation matches, but it helped prove to the fans that Nitro can hold his own in risky matches as well as those under standard rules, and it ultimately helped get him over before becoming ECW Champion later on.
It’s clear that you won’t be changing your stance on Jeff Hardy anytime soon, if ever, so let’s just leave it at this. Jeff Hardy is an entertainer that wrestles as opposed to guys like Kurt Angle who is a wrestler that entertains. Same as Hogan and Cena to a lesser degree.
They’re not the most technically sound pure mat wrestlers by any means, but they get the job done and the fans back them all the way.
fair enough about rvd but most ecw spots were SICK
Ha Ha No biggie Mikey:) At 11 years old, I was entranced by Hart/Michaels. I guess it just depends on what makes a match special to you. For me, my all time favorite match is probably out of HBK/Jericho from Mania 19 or SummerSlam 2005 HBK/HHH. Those matches mean a lot to me because they were Shawn’s first big matches since his back injury. Watching him perform like he never even left made those matches special.
I guess the reason HBK/Taker is like 2nd or 3rd on my list is because I knew how the match would end and while the match was great, it didn’t appeal to me as much as it probably did die hard Taker fans. The streak lives…okay. Cool. I figured that. HBK at his age and with his stats…why the hell would he need to end Taker’s streak? That’s why it was just a great match for me, but not my favorite of all time.
Kurt Angle is a machine…or rather he was. I have many friends who HATE Iron Man matches but I love them. That’s why I’m partial to vote for something like Angle/Lesnar because that match kept me entertained the entire time. For someone to wrestle over an hour and keep me entertained, I got to give them their due. Looking back at Mania 12, maybe their match was epic for that time period but you’ve got to be kidding me if Angle/Lesnar did not entertain you. If it didn’t, well…again, to each his own.
break down the walls sir…..im pretty sure we had that discussion before as well about shelley being the next y2j….at least i know where 2 see the real alex shelley now
if cena wins we riot!!!!!!….the greatest sign EVER
the best jeff hardy match i ever saw was his first match in tna vs aj styles….and aj carried jeff
Well if you haven’t all checked it yet, the Future 50′ers & Honourable Mentions list is up right now.
yeah u guys got me with orton and angle
While the NWA World title certainly isn’t as big as it was in the past, it is still bigger than any of the indy titles out there.
You didn’t answer my question. How much weight did each person’s list carry (outside of JLB, Puro, and Triggs)?
The lists had two groupings…the list the three of us that signed up for this project came up with and the group of lists I asked others to do. Each groups lists were averaged together .
dude the Cena remarks were HILARIOUS. i dont love the guy but i do think he gets bad rep. He really visibly works hard and in his rapper gimick some of his promos were HILARIOUS. yes he cant control a crowd but honestly can AJ. but leave it alone as i dont care that much.
Angle, see i agree with your reasons. But i feel those should be reasons for being lower down not completely off. He has at times REALLY carried TNA on his own (the times when AJ was shat on). And some of the criticism you have are poor booking. Who has he got over… well maybe not in the ring but as a persona, Morgan was made HUGE with crowd through his interactions with Angle. whether i like Morgan or not for 4 months the crowd ADORED him and i do give the credit to Angle.
Orton, dude Orton has really been given some CRAPPY booking. You may not like his promos (although i do) but they are WAY better than AJ’s at the very least. The point is however bad or good he is you want to watch Randy. Your forgetting how GOLDEN his promos were the begining to the year when Legacy was forming. You have a couple of guys who had a crappy year but finished strongly, well orton started strongly (november till wrestlemania) and ended weak.
He really plays the WWE product well. his facial expressions are priceless. he really makes you feel like HE’S EVIL… not many heels do nowadays. His segment in the NO DQ match when he handcuffed CENA to the ringpost was really really good. I don’t think any other wrestler today could do that in a PG rating and make it look interesting. Plus, look how much ted and cody have improved in Legacy, some of that MUST be because of Randy… no?
p.s. notice the many references to AJ…. man i HATE TNA for burying him… he really is one talented kid
See I like this. Thank you Taymur. I love me some good quality debate and discussion.
“Angle, see i agree with your reasons. But i feel those should be reasons for being lower down not completely off… He has at times REALLY carried TNA on his own (the times when AJ was shat on).â€
Exactly…and not only did he carry the company when others were shat on…he carried when a LOT of others were shat on. He’s been a HUGE disappointment in terms of getting ratings since he’s been in TNA. I remember people saying in 2-3 years, with Angle, TNA would be competing with WWE. They really aren’t threatening them in the ratings at all, and WWE RAW resembles Saturday Night Live with its weekly celebrities more than it does a wrestling show. All it needs is a band and they’re set.
Wrestlers who carry companies the right way find ways to make everyone and everything around them better. I can’t look you in the eye and say that Angle does that.
“And some of the criticism you have are poor booking.â€
You know who has a lot of creative say right now? Kurt Angle. It’s why you wont see him heading back to WWE anytime soon.
“Who has he got over… well maybe not in the ring but as a personaâ€
That’s where he loses points to me. This is, at the end of the day, a wrestling business, not an episode of the OC or 90210.
“Morgan was made HUGE with crowd through his interactions with Angle.â€
Matt Morgan is physically huge…but when you say HUGE…I think you are overstating Matt Morgan a bit. The Rock is HUGE. Stone Cold is HUGE. Hulk Hogan is HUGE….you get the idea….Matt Morgan is not huge. He’s easily one of the most talented big men in the business and he could be a big deal in TNA….but he’s by no stretch HUGE….when he draws ratings in the 3.0’s and starts getting people to tune in en mass to see him work…then he could be called huge. Then we can talk about what Angle did for Morgan.
“You may not like his promos (although i do) but they are WAY better than AJ’s at the very least. The point is however bad or good he is you want to watch Randy.â€
I want to watch A.J. Styles more. Orton does have better promos than A.J., and I still want to watch A.J. more. I know that with A.J., there is potential to see something in a match that I’ve never seen in my life. With Orton, I don’t have that thought. Hell, someone mentioned in discussion boards before the iron man match that it would be cool if Orton hit Cena with an RKO out of the Attitude Adjustor…we’re talking about a common man…not a wrestler….at the Iron Man Match…Orton did it. The stuff Styles comes up with is crap you hardly ever hear someone speculate about being cool before the show.
“Your forgetting how GOLDEN his promos were the begining to the year when Legacy was forming. You have a couple of guys who had a crappy year but finished strongly, well orton started strongly (november till wrestlemania) and ended weak. “
I haven’t forgotten that at all…but how do promos alone warrant someone being ranked as one of the best 50 wrestlers in the world? A lot of people have cut golden promos this year…some even more so than Orton, but that doesn’t automatically qualify them as an elite wrestler.
“He really plays the WWE product well. his facial expressions are priceless.â€
I think you are referring to his sense of timing and not just his ability to make a facial expression. Yes, he does have a sense of timing when it comes to how to look when someone says something or when you need to look evil…but a lot of people also do this. Nakamura does this even better than Orton does right now. You know who else I believe is evil? Kane….and I don’t think much of anyone would say he’s a top guy in the world just for that. Punk does it….Edge does it… It’s all but one element to the puzzle for those guys.
“His segment in the NO DQ match when he handcuffed CENA to the ringpost was really really good.â€
Wrestlers being handcuffed to something isn’t new…its been done before, even in the old school days, and those days weren’t exactly rated XXX and those segments were just as believable. You’re assuming others couldn’t pull it off when you have no way of knowing that they couldn’t. It goes back to a list being subjective. All of them are, and that’s ok. I realize that and I’m okay with that.
“Plus, look how much ted and cody have improved in Legacy, some of that MUST be because of Randy… no?â€
No….some of it doesn’t have to be at all. For all we know, he may not me adding anything to their careers at all. He could be a jerk for all we know. Hell, he has a reputation for being a jerk throughout his career. He may not be that way now, but that’s speculation and not actual fact. We don’t know the nature of Orton’s influence…only DiBiase and Rhodes could tell us that.
superman does not always have that